Why the huge Spike hate?

[Silverspike]

I agree, but those characters suffer similar problems. We don't take their deeds all that seriously. This wouldn't have been a problem with Spike, per se, until they later (S6) wanted us to take them seriously.

Well imo we do when the writers flag up that we should.

 

[NothingVentured]

Yeah, but that leads to internal fandom strife, warring factions and character-hate based on the character's fans.

 

[Silverspike]

Well thats the fans problems, not the writers. If people can't wrap their heads around what the shows always been about and how it comes across then maybe they would be better off watching something else?

Personally I've always found the balance between drama and humor to be beautifully handled.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Yeah, but that leads to internal fandom strife, warring factions and character-hate based on the character's fans.

who cares if fandom is "in strife" or if fans hate a character or get passionate about it one way or the other? Someone disagrees with my feelings about a character, so what? The writers make it unclear sometimes whether a scene is supposed to be interpreted one way or another because of the insertion of humor at a key point, so what? There is no one correct interpretation of anything anyway.

I don't know about this thread. Why the huge Spike hate we're being asked. IMO the only way for that question to be productive is if people haven't spared themselves no small amount of self-analysis about the topic, which in the end would mean a productive conversation would be one about ourselves (or an ethical position, or some psychological point, etc.), with Spike serving as the point of departure. But nobody is doing that. The conversation just stays at the level of I like him, I don't like him, you're wrong, endless elaboration about why, etc. and the really interesting questions never get asked.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

The conversation just stays at the level of I like him, I don't like him, you're wrong, endless elaboration about why, etc. the really interesting questions never get asked.

Thats because some people incapable of moving beyond the base arguments and asking the interesting questions.

 

[white avenger]

I think we went beyond rude when Spike told Wood his mother never loved him because she didn't quit being a Slayer (because that's totally how Slayers work), and then bit him after he had already beaten him. And then continued to wear the murder trophy he got from her in Wood's presence. Spike had a right to defend himself, but that's just being a dick.

No, we went beyond rude (WAY beyond) when Wood plotted to kill who he knew was, technically, an innocent man for a monster killing his mother. Up until that point, Spike had no idea whatsoever that Wood was Nikki Wood's son. Afterward, yes, wearing the coat in Wood's presence was, at the least, in bad taste, and I'm relatively sure that Spike knew that. I seriously doubt, however, that whether or not he wore it, would have change Wood's feelings toward him in the least. So, maybe Spike was intentionally goading Wood, trying to get him to do something just so he could keep his promise.

 

[gite63]

I believe that a better question would be WHEN the huge Spike hate begun... I know the answer, but I won't share.

 

[bespangeled]

Angel was polite. At least twice.

Angel fed a bomb shelter full of lawyers to to Darla and Dru. Politely. 

Of course not.
But you at least can be polite and try to understand that victim from your past has every right to hate you and wanting to kill you.

Does that just go for Robin Wood, or does it also go for Spike? He was the victim of this murder attempt after all. Maybe Wood should understand that and not expect sympathy. He's the one who decided this should be settled with violence, and that he wanted his revenge more than he wanted to battle the First. Of all the people the First tried to tempt, Robin Wood is the only one who immediately threw honor to the wind and willingly did what the First wanted him to do. I know the temptation is to see him as an innocent 4 year old - but he's actually an adult. He made his choice - to follow the First. 

The difference is when Angel gets attacked by vampire hunters he doesn't tend to gloat and piss all over their pain.
Justine and all those other vampires tried to kill Angel and, even with his son missing, he doesn't cross any lines- he just beats them up and lets them go.
And Holtz? The guy took his son, turned him into the enemy who tries to kill him and Angel still feels the need to apologise to the old bastard.

Angel's view of redemption is one of the things I love about him and ironically it also leads to his biggest moral failings.

Angel's view of redemption kinda gets very shaky - don't whitewash him. How many lawyers were in that room? How many were alive after? I know why he did it - have to say I understand but if we are going to compare souled vamps let's really look at them with both eyes open. There was even a bit of gloating there when he said he couldn't be bothered to care. 

I think this was a problem myself. Spike's evil deeds were typically depicted as nearly comedic rather than vicious. Even the killing of the slayers in FFL contained a touch of romanticism because it's told from his POV. This versus Angelus who killed some fish and you'd think he paved Revello with baby carcasses.

What evil deeds are we talking about? I'd say Spike's evil deeds were shown to be only second to Angel's evil deeds.

When we are speaking of Angel - don't forget that he also killed Jenny, and a few other young girls in Sunnydale, as well as at least one toddler. It wasn't just fish. It was an all out attempt to do to Buffy what he did to Dru. 

For instance, and in my opinion, this is good Spike (and sorry, I HATE when people just post dialog.. it drives me nuts, but its the best way to illustrate the differences as I see them)
This to me is GOOD Spike:
Spike: Come on. I-I'm parboiling out here.
Buffy: [Giles hands Buffy a stake] Want me to make it quicker?
Spike: [pitifully] Invite me in!
Buffy: No.
Giles: Fairly unlikely.
Spike: [Spike tries running in and is knocked back] Oh, damn it! Look, I'm safe. I can't bite anyone. Willow, tell 'em what I did.
Willow: Y-You said you were gonna kill me, then Buffy.
Spike: Yes, bad, but let's skip that part and get to the part where I couldn't bite you.
Willow: It's true. He had trouble performing.

This to me is BAD Spike:
Spike: A bear! You made a bear!
Buffy: I didn't mean to.
Spike: Undo it! Undo it!

One is laughing at, and the only is with. The dialog written purely as a joke is what I dont like.

For me, they show a range of Spike. It's the contradictions that interest me. Look at LW - he's a buffoon until he points out that Buffy and Angel are far more in denial than he is. Even when he's the butt of the joke, he can flip it - he's the fool, combining humor and insight and telling truths others don't want to hear.

By season five, Spike was slowly gaining credibility, and by the time Buffy died he was a character fully invested in helping Buffy survive. 

who cares if fandom is "in strife" or if fans hate a character or get passionate about it one way or the other? Someone disagrees with my feelings about a character, so what? The writers make it unclear sometimes whether a scene is supposed to be interpreted one way or another because of the insertion of humor at a key point, so what? There is no one correct interpretation of anything anyway.

I don't know about this thread. Why the huge Spike hate we're being asked. IMO the only way for that question to be productive is if people haven't spared themselves no small amount of self-analysis about the topic, which in the end would mean a productive conversation would be one about ourselves (or an ethical position, or some psychological point, etc.), with Spike serving as the point of departure. But nobody is doing that. The conversation just stays at the level of I like him, I don't like him, you're wrong, endless elaboration about why, etc. and the really interesting questions never get asked.

Hey - there have been some insightful discussions in these 12 pages. But now we are simply diggin up the bones to see if any meat was left behind. 😛 

No, we went beyond rude (WAY beyond) when Wood plotted to kill who he knew was, technically, an innocent man for a monster killing his mother. Up until that point, Spike had no idea whatsoever that Wood was Nikki Wood's son. Afterward, yes, wearing the coat in Wood's presence was, at the least, in bad taste, and I'm relatively sure that Spike knew that. I seriously doubt, however, that whether or not he wore it, would have change Wood's feelings toward him in the least. So, maybe Spike was intentionally goading Wood, trying to get him to do something just so he could keep his promise.

Or maybe he just refused to be intimidated. Somebody ambushes you and tries to kill you - revealing corruption at the highest ranks - making sure that General Buffy has no idea what is being done behind her back. I really can't see Spike meekly handing over whatever his killer wanted. That ambush alone would make me lose any sympathy. 

I believe that a better question would be WHEN the huge Spike hate begun... I know the answer, but I won't share.

I assume it began when a Bangel objected to Spuffy (only since Bangel existed first). What I don't understand is why this huge need to slag the other vamp. only one of them can be the one to approve of, therefore you must find reasons to hate the other one. Which is kinda why I was interested in learning the why of it.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I assume it began when a Bangel objected to Spuffy (only since Bangel existed first). What I don't understand is why this huge need to slag the other vamp. only one of them can be the one to approve of, therefore you must find reasons to hate the other one. Which is kinda why I was interested in learning the why of it.

Well, I know why I personally hate(d) Spike.. but you aren't asking that.. and I am not telling that in an open forum!

 

[bespangeled]

Well, I know why I personally hate(d) Spike.. but you aren't asking that.. and I am not telling that in an open forum!

That may be best - we really don't need another Why I Hate Spike thread. 😀

But you can message me. 😉

 

[thetopher]

Angel's view of redemption kinda gets very shaky - don't whitewash him.

I'm not at all.
Angel's view of his own redemption goes to the very core of his bad decisions, as in 'Can it ever be done? Can I ever make up for the things I have done' Most of the time he tries and tries and doesn't give up, but other times his sins weigh on him so much that he does stupid things- suicide by sunlight, getting all vengful with W&H, taking over their LA offices for the promise of doing 'greater things' for more people' the list goes on and on.

Angel's fine when he keeps his perspective (and has others around to do it for him), it's when he does the 'big picture redemption' stuff that the grey area comes in.

I get Angel just fine. 🙂

How many lawyers were in that room? How many were alive after? I know why he did it - have to say I understand but if we are going to compare souled vamps let's really look at them with both eyes open. There was even a bit of gloating there when he said he couldn't be bothered to care.

You mean those lawyers that were going to die anyway? Remember that the PTB sent Cordelia a vision to keep Angel away from that event- it was destined to happen anyway- all Angel did was lock the doors, Dru and Darla did the rest.
Angel should take exactly the right amount of blame, but not all of it.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Angel should take exactly the right amount of blame, but not all of it.

But it really wasnt 'Angel' either. If you consider evil vampire Liam to be Angelus, and good vampire Liam to be Angel, then that was the apathetic, morally ambiguous vampire that you saw in flashbacks. Either Dru or Darla said it "it's not the Angel beast" and then the "who are you" line.. as neither of them saw the morally ambiguous coffee shop dead body sucking, leaving them in the Hyperion to die, badass that is morally grey vampire Liam.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

No, we went beyond rude (WAY beyond) when Wood plotted to kill who he knew was, technically, an innocent man for a monster killing his mother. Up until that point, Spike had no idea whatsoever that Wood was Nikki Wood's son. Afterward, yes, wearing the coat in Wood's presence was, at the least, in bad taste, and I'm relatively sure that Spike knew that. I seriously doubt, however, that whether or not he wore it, would have change Wood's feelings toward him in the least. So, maybe Spike was intentionally goading Wood, trying to get him to do something just so he could keep his promise.

Spike is not an innocent man (neither is Angel, let's get that out of the way now). His human soul is innocent, but the demon is still present within him, and the resulting composite being has the memories, experiences and instincts of both. He's neither completely guilty, nor is he completely innocent. And he constantly refers to himself as "I" when talking about his past crimes, so he clearly views himself as the same entity that killed Nikki.

Wood's tactics suck, I admit. He should have gotten his Uma Thurman on, wore a yellow track suit and yelled "Spike! You and I have unfinished business!" and had a katana fight in the snow or something. That episode makes me hate everyone and everything involved. But I can empathize with him more than the others. If some psycho killed my mother, you'd think I'd care if he (for all I know, allegedly) seemed to reform? Honor and rationality would take a backseat in that scenario. When you add that Buffy is acting like a lunatic and Spike is way more of a liability than an asset at this point, than Wood P.O.V makes the most sense in that episode.

Wood's feelings wouldn't have changed, but Spike maybe should not wear it in an attempt to be a better person. And while I never had the reading into Spike's mind before, I can totally believe that he'd be a big enough asshole to goad Wood into attacking him so he'd have an excuse to kill him.

 

[bespangeled]

Spike is not an innocent man (neither is Angel, let's get that out of the way now). His human soul is innocent, but the demon is still present within him, and the resulting composite being has the memories, experiences and instincts of both. He's neither completely guilty, nor is he completely innocent. And he constantly refers to himself as "I" when talking about his past crimes, so he clearly views himself as the same entity that killed Nikki.

Wood's tactics suck, I admit. He should have gotten his Uma Thurman on, wore a yellow track suit and yelled "Spike! You and I have unfinished business!" and had a katana fight in the snow or something. That episode makes me hate everyone and everything involved. But I can empathize with him more than the others. If some psycho killed my mother, you'd think I'd care if he (for all I know, allegedly) seemed to reform? Honor and rationality would take a backseat in that scenario. When you add that Buffy is acting like a lunatic and Spike is way more of a liability than an asset at this point, than Wood P.O.V makes the most sense in that episode.

Wood's feelings wouldn't have changed, but Spike maybe should not wear it in an attempt to be a better person. And while I never had the reading into Spike's mind before, I can totally believe that he'd be a big enough asshole to goad Wood into attacking him so he'd have an excuse to kill him.

My view, like Buffy's is the bigger picture. Wood knew it was the First - knew the First wanted him to kill Spike - and he grabbed the opportunity instead of resisting. As he said later, the First targets weakness, but every other person confronted managed to resist that temptation. What he did was immoral - putting personal satisfaction before a war against evil. Choosing to side with evil and do what it wanted. That part was way out of line, IMO

 

[white avenger]

Spike is not an innocent man (neither is Angel, let's get that out of the way now). His human soul is innocent, but the demon is still present within him, and the resulting composite being has the memories, experiences and instincts of both. He's neither completely guilty, nor is he completely innocent. And he constantly refers to himself as "I" when talking about his past crimes, so he clearly views himself as the same entity that killed Nikki.

Wood's tactics suck, I admit. He should have gotten his Uma Thurman on, wore a yellow track suit and yelled "Spike! You and I have unfinished business!" and had a katana fight in the snow or something.

When you add that Buffy is acting like a lunatic and Spike is way more of a liability than an asset at this point, than Wood P.O.V makes the most sense in that episode.

Wood's feelings wouldn't have changed, but Spike maybe should not wear it in an attempt to be a better person. And while I never had the reading into Spike's mind before, I can totally believe that he'd be a big enough asshole to goad Wood into attacking him so he'd have an excuse to kill him.

The rules in the Whedonverse are that, when a vampire has his soul restored, he is a new person, separate from his soulless predecessor, who is, in turn, separate from his human predecessor. In other words, William, soulless Spike, and ensouled Spike all share the same memories, but they are not the same person. That's Joss' rule, not mine or any fan's, and it's Joss' universe, so his rules abide. Spike may, or may not, feel any kind of guilt for what his soulless self did, but he is no more actually responsible for those things than Angel is responsible for Angelus killing Jenny Calendar.

Whether Buffy was acting like a lunatic or not is open for judgement, but, lunatic or not, she was the one who was taking the risks, doing most of the actual fighting, providing the shelter, making the important decisions, and was recognized as the group leader. Spike was under her protection, which she had made quite clear on more than one occasion. If we accept that Wood had joined Buffy's group, then he has accepted her authority and is subject to her orders. As such, his actions in trying to kill Spike make him a disruption to the team's operation and discipline. On the other hand, if we decide that Wood was not a member of Buffy's group, then he would be considered an outsider, once more interfering with the operation and discipline of her team and threatening the person who Buffy called her strongest fighter. In either case, Wood's actions, at that time, were wrong and potentially disastrous. If he wanted to settle his affairs with Spike once the fight with the First Evil was concluded, assuming that they both survived, that would have been between him and Spike, Uma Thurman style, or any other way, personal and private, none of Buffy's business or anyone else's.

 

[Firstina]

Angel fed a bomb shelter full of lawyers to to Darla and Dru. Politely.

I am referring more to his past innocent victims. And lawyers were, after all, his enemies. Yes, it's very questionable decision but they were completely aware of what they were doing in the evil law firm. And by the way Buffy did the same thing to Ford when she left him with Dru and Spike in that basement and I think everybody constantly brings this cruel "poetic justice" argument against Angel and tends to forget about the same one with Buffy. And Ford wasn't even an evil lawyer who was paid dirty salary for his evil deeds.

Does that just go for Robin Wood, or does it also go for Spike? He was the victim of this murder attempt after all. Maybe Wood should understand that and not expect sympathy. He's the one who decided this should be settled with violence, and that he wanted his revenge more than he wanted to battle the First. Of all the people the First tried to tempt, Robin Wood is the only one who immediately threw honor to the wind and willingly did what the First wanted him to do. I know the temptation is to see him as an innocent 4 year old - but he's actually an adult. He made his choice - to follow the First.

I am not saying that Spike shouldn't fight back or be annoyed by this attempt. But he is wearing the face of the known murderer. If he wanted to be safe for the rest of his life maybe he should consider buying "I have a soul now" T-shirt.

The rules in the Whedonverse are that, when a vampire has his soul restored, he is a new person, separate from his soulless predecessor, who is, in turn, separate from his human predecessor. In other words, William, soulless Spike, and ensouled Spike all share the same memories, but they are not the same person. That's Joss' rule, not mine or any fan's, and it's Joss' universe, so his rules abide. Spike may, or may not, feel any kind of guilt for what his soulless self did, but he is no more actually responsible for those things than Angel is responsible for Angelus killing Jenny Calendar.

It's debatable. Otherwise, why do we have the references like:
ANGEL:It's not the demon in me that needs killing, Buffy. It's the man. (Amends).
DARLA:You don't learn that kind of darkness. It's innate. It was in you before we ever met. (Dear Boy)
ANGELUS: You'll just hang up your spurs and ride off into the sunset knowing you put the monster back in his cage. But, I'm always here, Faithy. Deep in. (Orpheus)
We don't even know how demon or soul affects the human part of the person to say that vampires with the soul are completely separate. All we know that Angel managed to maintain some sort of balance between his demon and a soul after a 100 years but demon is still inside him ready to strike every moment. Vampire can't get rid of that because he is not a human with a soul, he is demon with a soul.

 

[bespangeled]

I am referring more to his past innocent victims. And lawyers were, after all, his enemies. Yes, it's very questionable decision but they were completely aware of what they were doing in the evil law firm. And by the way Buffy did the same thing to Ford when she left him with Dru and Spike in that basement and I think everybody constantly brings this cruel "poetic justice" argument against Angel and tends to forget about the same one with Buffy. And Ford wasn't even an evil lawyer who was paid dirty salary for his evil deeds.

I was being quippy. Keep in mind that Angel and Spike are my ship - so I don't play the pick a vamp and hate the other seesaw. I flat out love Angel, easily as much as I love Spike. My comment is about how, in that period of time, he willingly changed the way he fought. He fired everyone, let Angelus surface a bit (like Giles/Riper), and went to work on what he had to do. I am morally against feeding anyone to vampires- but damn, I really love that scene anyway. And I love that part of Angel that rears its head and decides he's done playing nice. As for Ford, he actually invited the vampires in because he wanted to be turned - which he was.

I am not saying that Spike shouldn't fight back or be annoyed by this attempt. But he is wearing the face of the known murderer. If he wanted to be safe for the rest of his life maybe he should consider buying "I have a soul now" T-shirt.

Wood new he was souled before he even met Spike - I don't think a t-shirt would have made any difference.

It's debatable. Otherwise, why do we have the references like:
ANGEL:It's not the demon in me that needs killing, Buffy. It's the man. (Amends).
DARLA:You don't learn that kind of darkness. It's innate. It was in you before we ever met. (Dear Boy)
ANGELUS: You'll just hang up your spurs and ride off into the sunset knowing you put the monster back in his cage. But, I'm always here, Faithy. Deep in. (Orpheus)
We don't even know how demon or soul affects the human part of the person to say that vampires with the soul are completely separate. All we know that Angel managed to maintain some sort of balance between his demon and a soul after a 100 years but demon is still inside him ready to strike every moment. Vampire can't get rid of that because he is not a human with a soul, he is demon with a soul.

We do know that both soul and demon are present together -as shown by Angel's knowledge of minute details when he has lost his soul. And yes, I agree, he is a demon with a soul. Both Spike and Angel rebelled against their human personalities, which is interesting.

 

[gite63]

If we accept that Wood had joined Buffy's group, then he has accepted her authority and is subject to her orders. As such, his actions in trying to kill Spike make him a disruption to the team's operation and discipline. On the other hand, if we decide that Wood was not a member of Buffy's group, then he would be considered an outsider, once more interfering with the operation and discipline of her team and threatening the person who Buffy called her strongest fighter. In either case, Wood's actions, at that time, were wrong and potentially disastrous.

Wood was blinded by his quest - to find and kill the vampire who killed his mother, so I give him a pass for that, but yeah, he became a liability as soon as considered his vendetta more important that the fight against the First.

But the worst thing was that he had the incentive to kill Spike from someone inside Buffy's group - Giles. Giles didn't respect Buffy as a person, he didn't respect her decisions as Slayer. Giles could have stopped Wood, by convincing him not to go after Spike (in that moment, at least), or by telling Buffy about Wood's intentions.

 

[Firstina]

I was being quippy. Keep in mind that Angel and Spike are my ship - so I don't play the pick a vamp and hate the other seesaw. I flat out love Angel, easily as much as I love Spike. My comment is about how, in that period of time, he willingly changed the way he fought. He fired everyone, let Angelus surface a bit (like Giles/Riper), and went to work on what he had to do. I am morally against feeding anyone to vampires- but damn, I really love that scene anyway. And I love that part of Angel that rears its head and decides he's done playing nice. As for Ford, he actually invited the vampires in because he wanted to be turned - which he was.

I am okay with both vampires. With Spike it's representation of the character and the message of Spuffy (if we describe them as a romantic couple in season 7) bugs me a little. Besides that I am good. Just like my vampires more conflicted, I guess, like Angel. And I do like that scene a lot too - it shows how unpredictable Angel is.

Wood new he was souled before he even met Spike - I don't think a t-shirt would have made any difference.

I was being quippy too, don't mind that.

We do know that both soul and demon are present together -as shown by Angel's knowledge of minute details when he has lost his soul. And yes, I agree, he is a demon with a soul. Both Spike and Angel rebelled against their human personalities, which is interesting.

Agree on that. Just don't know if we can say that "separate indentities" is canon version of vampire before and after soul.

 

[white avenger]

But the worst thing was that he had the incentive to kill Spike from someone inside Buffy's group - Giles. Giles didn't respect Buffy as a person, he didn't respect her decisions as Slayer. Giles could have stopped Wood, by convincing him not to go after Spike (in that moment, at least), or by telling Buffy about Wood's intentions.

Giles should have seen the consequences of either killing Spike, or even attempting to do so and failing, both with Buffy and the fight in general, but I think that his "I want so much more for (Buffy)" completely overruled anything else. If Wood was blinded by his obsession to exact revenge on his mother's killer, Giles was equally blinded by his obsession to get rid of Spike, by any means necessary. He performs one single test to identify the trigger that the First Evil is exploiting. and his immediate solution is to support Wood in his vendetta. Change the situation slightly, put Buffy in Spike's place, with the First Evil using her memories of finding her mother dead, and I wonder if he would have been so eager to help Wood kill her?

In any case, Giles got off light for his betrayal of the girl who he loved like a daughter. All that he got was a door closed in his face, not even slammed, while Wood got his clock cleaned and received a threat to his life if he didn't back off.