Why the huge Spike hate?

[SiegePerilous02]

This exchange is from 'Dirty Girls' when Faith meets Spike and they fight.


SPIKE (cont'd): Bloody hell! What are you doing --I'm on your side!

FAITH: Yeah?

She attacks, hitting him again.

FAITH (cont'd): Maybe you haven't heard. I'm reformed.

SPIKE: So am I!

He blocks her attack and CRACK hits her square in the face.

SPIKE (cont'd): I reformed way before you did.


So, according to soulled Spike, he reformed as soon as the chip was put in- he considers everything after that event to be part of his reforming. He must be refering to this otherwise it makes no sense.

(I mean, he's still utterly wrong, this is Spike after all- Faith reformed in 'Sanctuary' Angel S1 when she saved Angel from that weird spider/assassin demon than then turned herself in. Spike in S4 of Buffy, worked with Adam against the Scoobies, then went on to put Riley's life in danger in S5, kidnapped Buffy with Dru's help, tied her up and threatened her...I won't even touch on all the stuff he did in S6.)

But Spike consides all those actions a natural part of his reformation. He expects credit for them and yet feels no real remorse for his evil actions, (he even feels pride with some of them.) not until Angel S5 anyway.

You know, this scene is a great example of the way the narrative contradicts itself constantly when it comes to Spike's soul. One minute they're harping about how the man is not responsible for the actions of the demon, while the next Spike inflates his "good deeds" from his pre-soul days. Which is it? You can't have it both ways. See also his bragging to Angel about the sex he had with Buffy, despite that fact that he seems remorseful about it here.

Also, this scene may be a really good example of the Mutant Enemy writers just not giving a crap about continuity anymore in season 7. I can't decide if they were deliberately trying to make Spike so self centered and clueless about his nature, or if they genuinely made a mistake with the timeline. Faith did go through a serious rehabilitation long before Spike, and is really of a higher moral caliber than most of the Scoobies at this time, IMO.

Spike is often cited by some as the most complex character in the show, but that just isn't the case to me. He was conceived as a fun, if two-dimensional villain with a finite lifespan in the narrative that was stretched out beyond his expiration date, and not in a remotely natural way.

 

[bespangeled]

Actually, for me the question is more of a why would anybody be surprised over Spike being 'amazingly divisive' ? One would think that on-screen attempted rape used as a plot device would be answer enough. The show had plenty of controversial and violent scenes, but Spike was the only character that was written to perpetrate a sexual attack on the main heroine. If this is not a reason enough for being a 'divisive character' than what is ?




And here you go with generalizing the answer again, and acting as every mama-bear-Spike-fan out there ever does. It is all due to bad bad fans ( of both flavors) out there who vilified poor character who otherwise would have been universally adored and supported despite the AR and all that followed.

And this is exactly what every thread started to 'explore' Spike divisiveness always boils down to - somebody needing to prove one more time that the 'majority' of fandom luvrs him and if not for 'haters' who are irrational and divisive the blond wonder would be beloved of all.

---------- Post added at 10:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 AM ----------



Nuh, I will have my last shot.

If that's what you believe this is about, then there isn't much point conversing on the subject as you have pointed out.

---------- Post added at 04:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:22 PM ----------

Neither of the three happens to be 'redeemed' by the action though. And in neither case there is a crowd of fans out there, waiting with pitchforks to defend the perpetrator and explain to you why it is OK. In the Go Fish and the Reptile Boy the perpetrators got punished right away. In the Pack the attack is portrayed as something outside of the possessed entity control and technically that being is also banished and vanished with exorcism of the gyena spirit. Yet the being who attacked Buffy in Seeing Red is never punished or banished ( the demon is still there, inside and many actually argue that that demon changed, became kinder, gentler kind of demon, and eventually 'wanted a soul'), and yet not liking this is seen as extremism and it is also 'amazingly divisive' .

Irony - thank you for defending the perpetrators and explaining why their attacks were okay.

Yes, the attempted rape is definitely the reason for a lot of Spike hate, understandably so.

---------- Post added at 04:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:30 PM ----------

To get back to the point of the thread (which I've been following with interest) the main reason I dislike Spike the character, (I think we've had enough about the fans 😉.) is that he's quite content to take credit for all the good actions he did before he got a soul, while at the same time not taking real, tangable responsibility for all the bad he did/inflicted.

Plus there's Buffy in the background of S7 wailing 'He's got a soul now!'- which somehow what? Makes him automatically good?
Buffy's just been through years of some people very much with souls doing horrible, evil things (Andrew, Warren, Willow, Anya, Faith)
Hell, the viewer has seen Angel and Wesley (even Fred andf Gunn) do damn questionable things with a soul and we're all meant to sympathise with Buffy's viewpoint. Why is that?

I assume it's a leftover from the Angel vs Angelus paradigm. And I agree - not only did Hitler have a soul, so did all of his followers. But in the shorthand of the Buffyverse when a demon gets a soul they become good. That was established in season 2.

It actually would have been a kick to have a souled demon stay evil - some fun stuff to play with there.

As for the rest - I see that as something fans do. I don't recall him talking about anything he did that was good, but he does beg Buffy to kill him because of the wrong things he did. So what am I missing here?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

But in the shorthand of the Buffyverse when a demon gets a soul they become good. That was established in season 2.

But the show also established that unsouled demons are evil and dont do things like go and get souls...

 

[bespangeled]

I know he went there intending to get the soul. But technically unsouled spike did that, souled spike shouldn't get credit for that, he had no more control over it then Angel did getting cursed, which was one of the annoyances on my list, Spike gets to take credit for seeking out the soul, but then the bad stuff can be squashed away as "unsouled spike did that"

I can't wrap my head round that way of thinking.

I see that as a fan thing - as Spike said, it's already done, and I agree he finally started to get it in damage. I also have to say that I feel the same way about the Shanshu. How can anything wipe you past clean when the people you killed are still dead?

---------- Post added at 04:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:49 PM ----------

But the show also established that unsouled demons are evil and dont do things like go and get souls...

But unsouled demons with govt chips do! 🙂

Candidly, the only reason Spike evolved in any way is because of the chip, IMO. He was forced into a new relationship with the Happy Meals. Over the years it slowly changed him. I agree that Damage is where I finally see Spike begin to understand what he has done.

---------- Post added at 05:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:55 PM ----------

This exchange is from 'Dirty Girls' when Faith meets Spike and they fight.


SPIKE (cont'd): Bloody hell! What are you doing --I'm on your side!

FAITH: Yeah?

She attacks, hitting him again.

FAITH (cont'd): Maybe you haven't heard. I'm reformed.

SPIKE: So am I!

He blocks her attack and CRACK hits her square in the face.

SPIKE (cont'd): I reformed way before you did.


So, according to soulled Spike, he reformed as soon as the chip was put in- he considers everything after that event to be part of his reforming. He must be refering to this otherwise it makes no sense.

(I mean, he's still utterly wrong, this is Spike after all- Faith reformed in 'Sanctuary' Angel S1 when she saved Angel from that weird spider/assassin demon than then turned herself in. Spike in S4 of Buffy, worked with Adam against the Scoobies, then went on to put Riley's life in danger in S5, kidnapped Buffy with Dru's help, tied her up and threatened her...I won't even touch on all the stuff he did in S6.)

But Spike consides all those actions a natural part of his reformation. He expects credit for them and yet feels no real remorse for his evil actions, (he even feels pride with some of them.) not until Angel S5 anyway.

I can see that as a reason to not like him. But I also see other ways to interpret. It's interesting how people can take the same exchange as meaning something completely different.

 

[The Bronze]

Angelus isn't capable of doing good, Angel/Angelus isn't capable of good till he gets a soul, he literly can't do good without it

This can't be true can it? I would say for a starting point that all vampires have some level of understanding between good and evil / right and wrong, simply because they retain there human memories. They may not care anymore or actively pursue evil / wrong but they're not oblivious.

To say Angelus is actually incapable of performing a good action seems to be wide of the mark. He might choose never to perform one, he might resent having to perform a good act but there can't possibly be something physically stopping him. We might never have seen a good action from him on screen (I've got nothing) but that doesn't make him incapable.

We've never seen him put in a situation where doing the right / good thing would be beneficial to his survival. That to my mind is why we see different behaviour patterns in vampires. Spike adapted to circumstances because of the chip and Harmony also behaved differently when she assessed that being at Wolfram & Hart was better for her.

I would say that if Jasmine had told Angelus to help an old lady across the street he'd have done it.

 

[Buffy Summers]

But is it a good thing if it's only for survival/selfish reasons?

 

[bespangeled]

I agree, I dont understand people that think of Angel and Angelus as two completely 100% separate entities, Angels whole mission is about redemption, it's unnecessary if Angelus is a completely different entity.
But where we probably differ, and to answer the "Yes, and?" part - Angelus isn't capable of doing good, Angel/Angelus isn't capable of good till he gets a soul, he literly can't do good without it, we know for a fact that Angel/Angelus without that soul has absolutely NO humanity.
Which is why I dont like Spike. He was capable of good, but didn't do it, evil was more of an active choice and he should hold more blame for that, he should feel more guilt for what he's done, and not only does he not show more guilt, he shows less guilt. Which is all just part of the one entity idea, he is just as capable of being a bad guy and not caring as a good guy.

For me the series does lend itself to suggest that it isn't actually Spike thats the special one, it's Angel.
We see Darla human and she still takes pleasure in messing with Angel, Dru has humanity, Spikes goes to get a soul as an unsouled vampire, we see other vampires deeply in love etc.
It does seem to suggest that Angel is the special one, and is the only one that is two completely separate people.
Which is just even more reason to leave any reasoning of what applies to Angel shouldn't just be applied to Spike.


The Mayor was sadistic, as was Glory I still found both of them engaging, but that doesn't mean I think they could ever do enough to redeem themselves, or that they should ever be in a position of a romantic relationship with the main character.

Your reply wasn't entirely clear, do you also believe that he was capable of good while evil, which makes him more evil?

Thats fine, of course, an evil character can still be liked by fans cuz they are fun. But I really dont understand how Spike can be made up to be such a hero, when if you believe he's that deeply evil he's done anywhere near enough to be redeemed, if you were embracing his evil, I'd understand, but it always seemed like his evil is excused to amplify the good and I can't connect the two - if you think he's capable of that kind of evil, why should be regarded as such a hero?


I can understand saying he's started a redemption arc, I believe he started an arc by dying in the hellmouth, and really started to build that arc on Angel, but he threw that opportunity out, to go back to a place he was at in season 6, before an arc started.

I agree that both Angel and Spikes arcs are shakey, but the difference is the evil Angel does is thought about, he doesn't just do it, it's a calculated decision. Killing Drogyn, wasn't good, but overall it was for good, it's a very flawed good, but it was a decision he thought about, assessed and determined a best course of outcome on.

Spikes shakey moments seem to just be part of his character, like how I was saying I think he's still capable of the kind of evil he did before as a good character, his shakey decisions aren't thought through, they are his first thought. So it's a very different shakey.

Thanks - this is great. It gives me a very clear idea of why you dislike him on a lot of levels.

I see Angel as equally culpable after he decides lawyers can be snack food (although I have to admit that I did cheer at that, too).

My view - Spike, from the time he was human, has a real narcissistic streak. You see it in every evolution of him, until Damage. I really think he has this subconscious belief that if he isn't the center of attention then he doesn't exist. Dru kept him happy by telling him how wonderful he was, among other things. Once she was gone and he was chipped and beating on demons, he had only people to "see" him. That's the only reason he changed at all.

Darla does say that who we were before we were turned informs who we are as demons. Spike rebelled against everything he had been, but he did remain the Victorian romantic in the sense that everything important had to be larger than life.

---------- Post added at 05:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:31 PM ----------

But is it a good thing if it's only for survival/selfish reasons?

It's still a good thing. If someone grabbed a puppy from in front of a truck, even if all he wants is to be seen as a hero that puppy is still alive.

BTW - I am back to enjoying this thread.😉

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I see that as a fan thing - as Spike said, it's already done,

But if it's done, it shouldn't be referenced again, he actively uses it as a selling point for himself throughout season 7?

ow can anything wipe you past clean when the people you killed are still dead?

Well the Shanshu doesn't wipe your past clean.

But unsouled demons with govt chips do! 🙂

Candidly, the only reason Spike evolved in any way is because of the chip, IMO. He was forced into a new relationship with the Happy Meals. Over the years it slowly changed him. I agree that Damage is where I finally see Spike begin to understand what he has done.

But they aren't related, the chip is a behavioural modificator. The whole area of physology that the chip relates to is quite clear, the negative reinforcement of the chip doesn't make Spike involve, it's suposed to create a negative connection to harming people, in that way it changes his behaviour, but it doesn't change his desire. His desire is still to eat the humans, but his behaviouroural modification should teach him not to eat people.

If a kid is rewarded for cleaning his room, he doesn't want to clean the room, he wants the reward. The modifier makes the kid clean the room with the promise of a reward.
Same in reverse, if a kid is punished he doesn't want to clean his room, he doesn't want to suffer the consequences.

The chip modifies behaviour it doesn't modify desire - this is not my opinion, it's the science behind the real world application of the chip.

So in that way, having a chip would never modify Spike to get a soul, it wasn't teaching him compassion or not to hurt people, it was teaching him dont hurt that person cuz you will feel pain.

Getting the soul was connected to his feeling for Buffy, feelings he's had right from the moment he met her, Dru confirms that in a flashback.

But I also see other ways to interpret.

What is it in that scene you interpert different, I agree a lot of scenes are open to interpretation, that one is fairly small and Spike is factually incorrect in it?

This can't be true can it? I would say for a starting point that all vampires have some level of understanding between good and evil / right and wrong, simply because they retain there human memories. They may not care anymore or actively pursue evil / wrong but they're not oblivious.

To say Angelus is actually incapable of performing a good action seems to be wide of the mark. He might choose never to perform one, he might resent having to perform a good act but there can't possibly be something physically stopping him. We might never have seen a good action from him on screen (I've got nothing) but that doesn't make him incapable.

Well no, there's nothing stopping him, except himself. I was probably over hyping it as a way to say he wouldn't do good.

We've never seen him put in a situation where doing the right / good thing would be beneficial to his survival. That to my mind is why we see different behaviour patterns in vampires. Spike adapted to circumstances because of the chip and Harmony also behaved differently when she assessed that being at Wolfram & Hart was better for her.

I definitely dont count doing good for your own survival as actually a good thing, Spike did a "good" thing in season 2 going to Buffy, but he did it cuz he wanted to be able to eat more people whenever he wanted, if it's for evil-selfish reasons it negates the good. We couldn't call Spike a hero for what he did in season 2.

I would say that if Jasmine had told Angelus to help an old lady across the street he'd have done it.

Well yeah, but thats mind control.

Without meaning literally he can't do good, Angelus would never do good, unless it was selfish.

Spike turned Billy after everything that happened, I'd count that as good, he stuck to his word, I can't see Angelus as doing that.

---------- Post added at 02:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:53 AM ----------

I see Angel as equally culpable after he decides lawyers can be snack food (although I have to admit that I did cheer at that, too).

Whats that got to do with Spike though?

My view - Spike, from the time he was human, has a real narcissistic streak. You see it in every evolution of him, until Damage. I really think he has this subconscious belief that if he isn't the center of attention then he doesn't exist. Dru kept him happy by telling him how wonderful he was, among other things. Once she was gone and he was chipped and beating on demons, he had only people to "see" him. That's the only reason he changed at all.

I dont see that as narcissistic.

He is obsessive, not narcissistic, he doesn't seem to like being the centre of attention. He likes to be the centre of attention of the person he's obsessing over.
He's also subservient, which doesn't really work with narcissistic other than the gratification he gets from being someone elses lap dog.

He was overly attached to his mother, once he was turned he still wanted to bring her into his new world.
He was obsessed with Cecily,
Obsessed with slayers,
Obsessed with Dru,
It always seemed like Dru lead the way, Spike never seemed to want to be the leader of the group, he was happy in his position, and didn't step up till they were abandoned by Darla and Angel.
But even then it seemed more like he propped up Dru, who made all the decisions.

He's always talked a big game, but dig through that bravado a little bit and he's a deeply insecure person, who needs to pour all his energy into someone else and gets validation from that person.

Dru told him how great he was when they first met, but as vampires she just seemed to lord over him, put him down, cheat on him but he was so devoted to her it didn't matter to him, that has never read as narcissistic to me.

 

[ladydorotea]

Irony - thank you for defending the perpetrators and explaining why their attacks were okay.

Their attacks were never okay. But the writing of the episodes in question handled the AR's in a way that does not offend because it took care of punishing the perpetrators , implying that 'it is not OK to try force a woman' - see it gets punished! Same way as portraying instances of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc is by itself does not mean 'defending' them. It is writing the plot that not only portrays the instances of such , but also glorifies and/or excuses them as in the case - "yeah I called somebody a *** , beaten them up, abused them, violated their free will, but in the end it caused me to be beloved by and forgiven by all because I was such a special snowflake !" that it becomes 'defending' and divisive.

 

[bespangeled]

But if it's done, it shouldn't be referenced again, he actively uses it as a selling point for himself throughout season 7?

Why not reference it? Pre3 and post soul behavior is a common topic throughout the series.

Well the Shanshu doesn't wipe your past clean.

SPIKE
Uh...right. So, what's in it for me?

SIRK
The vampire will have his past washed clean.

ANGEL
And live again in mortal form. Yeah, that part I know.

But they aren't related, the chip is a behavioural modificator. The whole area of physology that the chip relates to is quite clear, the negative reinforcement of the chip doesn't make Spike involve, it's suposed to create a negative connection to harming people, in that way it changes his behaviour, but it doesn't change his desire. His desire is still to eat the humans, but his behaviouroural modification should teach him not to eat people.

No, the beating up of demons makes him an anathema to the demons, which leaves him humans. And yes, he wants to eat people. As I recall the other souled demon still wants to eat people as well - as per Somnabulist and the dreams Angel enjoyed. I assume that comes with the package.

If a kid is rewarded for cleaning his room, he doesn't want to clean the room, he wants the reward. The modifier makes the kid clean the room with the promise of a reward.
Same in reverse, if a kid is punished he doesn't want to clean his room, he doesn't want to suffer the consequences.

The chip modifies behaviour it doesn't modify desire - this is not my opinion, it's the science behind the real world application of the chip.

Yes, the chip modifies behaviour - the modified behaviour also has consequences. Does Spike care about humans in general - hell, no. But he does get attached to the Scoobies eventually. He stays in town when Buffy dies to watch over Dawn. There is attachment there that would never have happened because of the chip.

So in that way, having a chip would never modify Spike to get a soul, it wasn't teaching him compassion or not to hurt people, it was teaching him dont hurt that person cuz you will feel pain.

Getting the soul was connected to his feeling for Buffy, feelings he's had right from the moment he met her, Dru confirms that in a flashback.

Agreed - again, I think the chip sent him on the path. Without the behaviours modification he would most likely keep attempting to kill Buffy. I tend to see feed, fight and **** as the vampire raison d'etre. Well, he can't fight Buffy or feed from her - hence 'the only thing better than killing a slayer..."

What is it in that scene you interpert different, I agree a lot of scenes are open to interpretation, that one is fairly small and Spike is factually incorrect in it?

How would Spike even know when Faith reformed? I'd put it in the same category as the Cordy/Spike - my soul is better than yours.

I definitely dont count doing good for your own survival as actually a good thing, Spike did a "good" thing in season 2 going to Buffy, but he did it cuz he wanted to be able to eat more people whenever he wanted, if it's for evil-selfish reasons it negates the good. We couldn't call Spike a hero for what he did in season 2.

Then Buffy is just as evil-selfish, because she agreed to the partnership for selfish reasons. OTH - no way is Spike a hero in season 2. He is clever enough to come to a solution and recruit the only person who can help him. And his goal is completely selfish - however his means to achieve that goal are not the usual vamp means, so in working with Buffy he loses what he wanted (Dru).

Whats that got to do with Spike though?

Two souled vamps in the world - and none of their behaviours happen in a vacuum. It's pertinent to the whole discussion about whether souls keep you from doing evil.

I dont see that as narcissistic.

He is obsessive, not narcissistic, he doesn't seem to like being the centre of attention. He likes to be the centre of attention of the person he's obsessing over.
He's also subservient, which doesn't really work with narcissistic other than the gratification he gets from being someone elses lap dog.

He was overly attached to his mother, once he was turned he still wanted to bring her into his new world.
He was obsessed with Cecily,
Obsessed with slayers,
Obsessed with Dru,
It always seemed like Dru lead the way, Spike never seemed to want to be the leader of the group, he was happy in his position, and didn't step up till they were abandoned by Darla and Angel.
But even then it seemed more like he propped up Dru, who made all the decisions.

He's always talked a big game, but dig through that bravado a little bit and he's a deeply insecure person, who needs to pour all his energy into someone else and gets validation from that person.

Dru told him how great he was when they first met, but as vampires she just seemed to lord over him, put him down, cheat on him but he was so devoted to her it didn't matter to him, that has never read as narcissistic to me.

You can be narcissistic and obsessive. And Spike was - WESLEY
William the Bloody. He's a vampire. One of the worst recorded. Second only to"”. That would seem he did more than talk a big game.

We clearly see all this differently, but I do understand why you would hate him, seeing him this way.🙂

---------- Post added at 07:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:54 PM ----------

Their attacks were never okay. But the writing of the episodes in question handled the AR's in a way that does not offend because it took care of punishing the perpetrators , implying that 'it is not OK to try force a woman' - see it gets punished! Same way as portraying instances of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc is by itself does not mean 'defending' them. It is writing the plot that not only portrays the instances of such , but also glorifies and/or excuses them as in the case - "yeah I called somebody a *** , beaten them up, abused them, violated their free will, but in the end it caused me to be beloved by and forgiven by all because I was such a special snowflake !" that it becomes 'defending' and divisive.

How was Xander punished? He simply denied remembering and Giles helped him cover it up. They never even talked about it, and he was neither enlightened nor punished.

I think you are forgetting a few steps on the road between the AR and the close friendship that eventually grows. He did get the soul to make sure he wouldn't hurt her again, and she did leave him in the basement for a good long time because she had no ****s to give about him.

As to the rest - Twelve Years a Slave is one helluva movie about racism. There are other works which examine sexism, homophobia, and other social ills like pedophilia. Art requires conflict and creates a strong emotional reaction.

And that leads me back full circle to the point of this thread.

 

[janas]

My view - Spike, from the time he was human, has a real narcissistic streak....

Although Spike present some narcissistic traits, I think that the pathology that representing him better is "Histrionic personality disorder". Angelus is a narcissist. Cordelia is a narcissist. Spike instead has a histrionic-antisocial personality type. But on the other hand, Spike is so many things during both shows,often inconsistent with each other, that it's difficult to correctly define its pathology. In fact he is a compendium of psychopathology.

 

[white avenger]

How would Spike even know when Faith reformed? I'd put it in the same category as the Cordy/Spike - my soul is better than yours.

Spike might have been referring here to actively "fighting for the good guys," as Faith herself put it, in which case, he wouldn't consider the time spent in prison as actually counting. He might have gotten that idea from Buffy, since I got the distinct impression that she never gave much credence to Faith's change (I wouldn't be a bit surprised if she had always thought that Faith turning herself in was at least partially motivated by the desire for protection from the Watchers' hit teams)

 

[ladydorotea]

How was Xander punished? He simply denied remembering and Giles helped him cover it up. They never even talked about it, and he was neither enlightened nor punished.

The hyena Spirit was in control of the attack, as neither before, nor after Xander showed any inclinations for rape of mindless laughter. And it was punished by vanquishing. The real mastermind behind the hyena Spirit infesting students was punished in the episode itself. But even though the hyena Spirit - and its supernatural powers that made the attack possible - was not part of Xander either before or after the attack incident ( unlike in case with Spike's demon), Xander was punished indirectly yet effectively with the curse of being a demon bait/being attracted to demons, and later with loosing an eye permanently. Nothing remotely that significant, painful or denigrating ever happened to Spike.

He did get the soul to make sure he wouldn't hurt her again

No, he did get the soul to make sure she 'gets what she deserves' - (whatever he thought it was that she deserved) - to quote from him, and that's a word of difference. If he really wanted to make sure he would never hurt her again all he had to do was step outside during daytime. Or at the very least leave for a different city, town, country, like forever. But nope, special snowflake finds his own ways.

she did leave him in the basement for a good long time because she had no ****s to give about him.

How about leaving him in 'the basement' for about 100+ years of solitude to feed on rats - with no friends, no 'ships' , no hope, and no future? Or maybe send him to a Hell dimension for another 100 years ? How about loosing a limb, an eye, love of his life , getting his throat cut - and loosing any hope for ever being not alone ? Sorry, wrong character/s. Or how about him loosing a sword hand - permanently, or 'other' significant body part - also permanently ? Or at the very least loosing 'special powars of specialness' such as plot armor ? Sorry, wrong story. Of course the 'special' snowflake will skip the punishment part.

As to the rest - Twelve Years a Slave is one helluva movie about racism. There are other works which examine sexism, homophobia, and other social ills like pedophilia. Art requires conflict and creates a strong emotional reaction.

I have not seen it, but does the plot involve a slaver who suddenly decides he will give his slave 'what he/she deserves' , goes through a few trials by combat and returns triumphant to the plantation to be forgiven and embraced by all the slaves - after suffering a bout of headaches in a basement for about a week ? That would be helluva of conflict.

 

[bespangeled]

Although Spike present some narcissistic traits, I think that the pathology that representing him better is "Histrionic personality disorder". Angelus is a narcissist. Cordelia is a narcissist. Spike instead has a histrionic-antisocial personality type. But on the other hand, Spike is so many things during both shows,often inconsistent with each other, that it's difficult to correctly define its pathology. In fact he is a compendium of psychopathology.

Yeah - he does kinda wander around the test books. And I agree, Angelus is definitely a narcissist - and I'd say Angel has some of those traits too. I loved the way Spike pegged exactly what was going on within minutes of his arrival.

SPIKE
I'm not the prat here. I know you, Angel. What do you think you're doing? Made some devil's bargain to take over this company. Thought you'd use it to fight the evil of the world from inside the belly of the beast. Trouble is you're too busy fighting to see you and yours are getting digested.

---------- Post added at 09:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 PM ----------

The hyena Spirit was in control of the attack, as neither before, nor after Xander showed any inclinations for rape of mindless laughter. And it was punished by vanquishing. The real mastermind behind the hyena Spirit infesting students was punished in the episode itself. But even though the hyena Spirit - and its supernatural powers that made the attack possible - was not part of Xander either before or after the attack incident ( unlike in case with Spike's demon), Xander was punished indirectly yet effectively with the curse of being a demon bait/being attracted to demons, and later with loosing an eye permanently. Nothing remotely that significant, painful or denigrating ever happened to Spike.

Never heard of a case where a hyena rapes a human.

She steps on something that crunches and crouches down to the floor. She
finds parts of Herbert, some vertebrae and other bones. She picks up a
rib. Xander comes in and stands behind her. Buffy gets back up and turns
around, only to be startled by him.

Buffy: Xander.

She tries to evade him, but he's quick to match her movement.

Buffy: (exhales) This is ridiculous. We need to talk.

She fakes him out and jumps on him, knocking him down with her on top
holding down his arms.

Xander: (smiles) Been waitin' for you to jump my bones.


Cut to the faculty room. Xander growls and rolls Buffy over onto her
back so he's on top now and has her arms pinned down.

Buffy: Get off of me.

Xander: Is that what you really want? (Buffy struggles a bit) We both
know what you really want. You want danger, don't cha? You like your men
dangerous.

Buffy: You're in trouble, Xander. You are infected with some hyena
thing, it's like a demonic possession!

Xander: Dangerous and mean, right? Like Angel. Your Mystery Guy. Well,
guess who just got mean.

Cut to Buffy and Xander. He is still on top of her.

Xander: Do you know how long... I've waited... until you'd stop
pretending that we aren't attracted...

Buffy throws him off of her and quickly gets up to face him. He gets up,
too, and begins to approach her as she backs away.

Xander: Until Willow... stops kidding herself... that I could settle
with anyone but you?

Buffy: Look, Xander, I don't wanna hurt you...

He grabs her by the shoulders and pushes her against the vending
machine.

Xander: Now do you wanna hurt me?

Buffy struggles, but the possessed Xander is too strong.

Xander: Come on, Slayer. I like it when you're scared.

She struggles a bit more.

Xander: The more I scare you, (sniffs her) the better you smell.

He moves in and kisses her roughly on the neck.

You say that's a hyena? The attempted rape is all Xander, and he never apologizes or attempts redemption of any sort. Nor is he punished. He and Giles just sweep it under the rug. BTW - this doesn't make what Spike did any less horrific.

No, he did get the soul to make sure she 'gets what she deserves' - (whatever he thought it was that she deserved) - to quote from him, and that's a word of difference. If he really wanted to make sure he would never hurt her again all he had to do was step outside during daytime. Or at the very least leave for a different city, town, country, like forever. But nope, special snowflake finds his own ways.

How about leaving him in 'the basement' for about 100+ years of solitude to feed on rats - with no friends, no 'ships' , no hope, and no future? Or maybe send him to a Hell dimension for another 100 years ? How about loosing a limb, an eye, love of his life , getting his throat cut - and loosing any hope for ever being not alone ? Sorry, wrong character/s. Or how about him loosing a sword hand - permanently, or 'other' significant body part - also permanently ? Or at the very least loosing 'special powars of specialness' such as plot armor ? Sorry, wrong story. Of course the 'special' snowflake will skip the punishment part.

I have not seen it, but does the plot involve a slaver who suddenly decides he will give his slave 'what he/she deserves' , goes through a few trials by combat and returns triumphant to the plantation to be forgiven and embraced by all the slaves - after suffering a bout of headaches in a basement for about a week ? That would be helluva of conflict.

I don't see that you are open to listening, and frankly I see most of this is sheer prejudice. Thank you for giving me a good example of furiously emotional Spike hatred. Since I didn't start this thread to defend Spike - though I did get drawn into it anyway I really don't see that we are capable of anything other than that circular conversation which I spoke of, so I think I'm going to bow out.

I make no judgement on your feelings - I simply disagree. You have every right to hate Spike as strongly as you do.

 

[ladydorotea]

I don't see that you are open to listening, and frankly I see most of this is sheer prejudice. Thank you for giving me a good example of furiously emotional Spike hatred.

I make no judgement on your feelings - I simply disagree. You have every right to hate Spike as strongly as you do.

I believe it is you who are not listening. You asked 'why the huge Spike hate?' I answered, giving you examples of characters perpetrating horrendous wrongs - and being punished for them - from BtVS, AtS and other tv shows (GoT). Each of my examples are borrowed from one of the real plots of real shows. If you think this 'sheer prejudice', then mayhap you think 90% of BtVS /AtS ( and GoT) redemption arcs are 'sheer prejudice' too ?
Here is pure distilled and rational reason to hate Spike the written fictional character not a person : he commits horrendous deeds and does not get adequately punished for them before he gets a blank slate 'redemption' sheet.

And roll eyes on you 'not judging' me - a real living person - for giving you - also a real living person - my reasons for hating Spike - purely fictional character - after you started a thread challenging all posters on the forum to give you reasons of hating the said character.

 

[bespangeled]

I believe it is you who are not listening. You asked 'why the huge Spike hate?' I answered, giving you examples of characters perpetrating horrendous wrongs - and being punished for them - from BtVS, AtS and other tv shows (GoT). Each of my examples are borrowed from one of the real plots of real shows. If you think this 'sheer prejudice', then mayhap you think 90% of BtVS /AtS ( and GoT) redemption arcs are 'sheer prejudice' too ?
Here is pure distilled and rational reason to hate Spike the written fictional character not a person : he commits horrendous deeds and does not get adequately punished for them before he gets a blank slate 'redemption' sheet.

And roll eyes on you 'not judging' me - a real living person - for giving you - also a real living person - my reasons for hating Spike - purely fictional character - after you started a thread challenging all posters on the forum to give you reasons of hating the said character.

That right there is why the conversation is circular. We are both trying to change each others minds, and we are both not going to change our minds. And the thread wasn't a challenge, it was a request for viewpoints and opinions.


How about leaving him in 'the basement' for about 100+ years of solitude to feed on rats - with no friends, no 'ships' , no hope, and no future? Or maybe send him to a Hell dimension for another 100 years ? How about loosing a limb, an eye, love of his life , getting his throat cut - and loosing any hope for ever being not alone ? Sorry, wrong character/s. Or how about him loosing a sword hand - permanently, or 'other' significant body part - also permanently ? Or at the very least loosing 'special powars of specialness' such as plot armor ? Sorry, wrong story. Of course the 'special' snowflake will skip the punishment part.

I have not seen it, but does the plot involve a slaver who suddenly decides he will give his slave 'what he/she deserves' , goes through a few trials by combat and returns triumphant to the plantation to be forgiven and embraced by all the slaves - after suffering a bout of headaches in a basement for about a week ? That would be helluva of conflict.

No need to talk more. I've got the gist. You passionately hate Spike for horrendous acts and you believe he needs far more torture.

BTW - Angel actually went to Elvis's wedding and hung out in Vegas a lot. He moved to the alley in the 70's according to Orpheus. And he began his redemption when he saw lolita!Buffy.

Special snowflake - we really have to come up with something more original. that's even older than 'cold dead seed'.

 

[Robb Stark]

...Xander clearly exhibits his attraction to Buffy and their history when he forces himself on her in "The Pack". That's not even open to interpretation. He was equally clearly being controlled/influenced by the hyena spirit/demon thing. However, the very same case can be made that Spike in S7, with a soul, is not responsible for pre-soul actions, as Xander is not responsible for hyena-spirit actions.

 

[janas]

Yeah - he does kinda wander around the test books. And I agree, Angelus is definitely a narcissist - and I'd say Angel has some of those traits too.

I disagree. If there is a personality type that is the exact opposite of narcissism, that's definitely Angel's personality.

I loved the way Spike pegged exactly what was going on within minutes of his arrival.
SPIKE
I'm not the prat here. I know you, Angel. What do you think you're doing? Made some devil's bargain to take over this company. Thought you'd use it to fight the evil of the world from inside the belly of the beast. Trouble is you're too busy fighting to see you and yours are getting digested.

Angel: Little tip, Spike: Try not to talk about things you don't understand.

Forgive me but I am compelled to disagree again. Spike not pegged nothing since he doesn't know what is happening. As always he presumed to know, as always he judge others but ignores Angel's motivations. Moreover, even this whole thing that Spike knows well Angel, I think it's an urban legend. Spike was sired when? 1880? Angelus was cursed in 1898. Only eighteen in which, probably, they shared time together, but I don't think that Spike and Drusilla were always with Angelus and Darla. So I would say that many beliefs are pure fanon fantasy. The truth is that Spike didn't know anything about Angel since they have never shared anything. After he was cursed, Angel went on his way alone. Spike and Angel meet again in China in 1900 and Spike didn't even realized that him wasn't Angelus. Last time they met was in that submarine during World War II, and once again, Spike thought he was Angelus. Spike didn't know anything about Angel, he doesn't know that reason why Angel is in W&H has a name. That name is Connor and Spike can't imagine, not even in its most vivid fantasies, that Angel has a son.

 

[bespangeled]

I disagree. If there is a personality type that is the exact opposite of narcissism, that's definitely Angel's personality.

Angel: Little tip, Spike: Try not to talk about things you don't understand.

Forgive me but I am compelled to disagree again. Spike not pegged nothing since he doesn't know what is happening. As always he presumed to know, as always he judge others but ignores Angel's motivations. Moreover, even this whole thing that Spike knows well Angel, I think it's an urban legend. Spike was sired when? 1880? Angelus was cursed in 1898. Only eighteen in which, probably, they shared time together, but I don't think that Spike and Drusilla were always with Angelus and Darla. So I would say that many beliefs are pure fanon fantasy. The truth is that Spike didn't know anything about Angel since they have never shared anything. After he was cursed, Angel went on his way alone. Spike and Angel meet again in China in 1900 and Spike didn't even realized that him wasn't Angelus. Last time they met was in that submarine during World War II, and once again, Spike thought he was Angelus.

I'll concede on any psychiatric diagnosis since I suspect you know more about it than I do. But on knowing what was going on:

Made some devil's bargain to take over this company. (Connor gets a new life and everyone's memories are wiped)

Thought you'd use it to fight the evil of the world from inside the belly of the beast. (Angel really does believe, at that time, that W&H can be a powerful force for good)

Trouble is you're too busy fighting to see you and yours are getting digested.(True again - as is rather quickly discovered)

As for personal history "You were my sire, man. You were my Yoda" I think that shows some sort of closeness. Spike didn't realize Angel was souled because there had never been a souled vampire. I agree though that there is a ton of fanon out there!

 

[janas]

Made some devil's bargain to take over this company. (Connor gets a new life and everyone's memories are wiped)

But Spike doesn't know this.

Thought you'd use it to fight the evil of the world from inside the belly of the beast. (Angel really does believe, at that time, that W&H can be a powerful force for good)

Trouble is you're too busy fighting to see you and yours are getting digested.(True again - as is rather quickly discovered)

Angel knows what he is doing and doesn't need Spike to understand it, since Angel is fully aware as can be risky working for W&H. Before the limo ride's even over, you'll be corrupted
Spike isn't saying anything that Angel doesn't already know, because he says the same things to Lilah (Home) well before the arrival of Spike.
LILAH: ...People don't need an unyielding champion. They need a man who knows the value of compromise and how to beat the system from inside the belly of the beast.
ANGEL: The beast's belly? Doesn't that usually mean you've been eaten?

As for personal history "You were my sire, man. You were my Yoda" I think that shows some sort of closeness. Spike didn't realize Angel was souled because there had never been a souled vampire. I agree though that there is a ton of fanon out there!

Or maybe because Spike doesn't know him as well as he says. Anyway, enough to talk about Angel because I think we're going OT. Sorry if I look aggressive, but with that quote from Just Rewards you made me remember one of the reasons why I hate Spike. His arrogant presumption.