Why wasn't AtS picked up again after cancellation?

[Cheese Slices]

I'm not the most knowledgeable person when it comes to Ats, but it seems to be its existence was already pretty much threatened by the end of S4 , hence the producers' insistance to bring Spike over on the show, so more people would watch. IIRC, it wasn't Josses decision to have him back, but the network's.

 

[Mr Trick]

I'm not the most knowledgeable person when it comes to Ats, but it seems to be its existence was already pretty much threatened by the end of S4 , hence the producers' insistance to bring Spike over on the show, so more people would watch. IIRC, it wasn't Josses decision to have him back, but the network's.

And that's an interesting point. For those knocking Joss for costing the show. I would put it to them as the showrunner he should have full creative control. The studio took that out of his hands by insisting that Spike join the show. Maybe that had something to do with Joss's rift with the studio?

 

[SES SA]

I don't' know Alyson had very little in S7 compared with JM , could have been to make sure Spuffy fans followed Spike onto Angel ? I can't remember either JM or AH either working for him after Angel

True, but it seemed like a lot of people had little in season 7. I guess they wanted to make room for more Spike....and Andrew....

You're right AH never has, but she also had most of her working year taken up by HIMYM for a decade.

I don't think he was. I know in one interview he mentioned that he'd like to explore more of the Angel/Spike dynamic in another season (though I can't remember if that was said before or after cancellation). However Bones did start in 2005 so I guess by the time he was cast in that he probably wasn't looking to go back to Angel stuff. And why would DB be considered responsible for job losses?

He did say he almost turned down Bones because another series sounded exhausting. He knew how much work it took. And his name was being thrown around as a possible Batman or Superman for Begins and Returns in 05&06. Add on that he was recovering from an ACL reconstruction and had played the character for 8 years, it makes sense he might want to call time.

 

[EarthLogic]

And that's an interesting point. For those knocking Joss for costing the show. I would put it to them as the showrunner he should have full creative control. The studio took that out of his hands by insisting that Spike join the show. Maybe that had something to do with Joss's rift with the studio?

Possibly, but I think Spike's inclusion had more to do with the low ratings for S4 and the budget cuts. They knew he had a huge fanbase so wanted to pull in those viewers from Buffy, but the reduced budget they gave producers meant that they couldn't afford to pay both CC and JM's salaries so James was brought in while Charisma was dropped.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Again with the story of the network insisting on having Spike go to Angel. I’ve never seen this sourced. Anyone have a source for this? I have also heard conflicting stories on this: network wanted A member of BtVS but not necessarily Spike, network wanted the show to “lighten up” therefore bringing Spike in the way he was brought in BtVS s4 - for levity (and ironically to replace Cordelia), I’ve also read that it was Joss and not the network that insisted on Spike.

If anyone can find quotes on this please post!

 

[Cheese Slices]

Again with the story of the network insisting on having Spike go to Angel. I’ve never seen this sourced. Anyone have a source for this? I have also heard conflicting stories on this: network wanted A member of BtVS but not necessarily Spike, network wanted the show to “lighten up” therefore bringing Spike in the way he was brought in BtVS s4 - for levity (and ironically to replace Cordelia), I’ve also read that it was Joss and not the network that insisted on Spike.

If anyone can find quotes on this please post!

I could swear I've read it in a Joss interview a few weeks ago, but unfortunately I doubt I can find it again, since I kind of stumbled upon it at the time. 🙁

 

[DagonSphere]

I don't think he was. I know in one interview he mentioned that he'd like to explore more of the Angel/Spike dynamic in another season (though I can't remember if that was said before or after cancellation). However Bones did start in 2005 so I guess by the time he was cast in that he probably wasn't looking to go back to Angel stuff. And why would DB be considered responsible for job losses?

If you're in a show that is named after your character and you decide to quit, then the show is over and hundreds of people lose their jobs. By being canceled, David did not have to make that decision and I read interviews back then, in which he said that it was kind of a relief, because so many people were dependent on him having to continue.

And yes, generally, David did also say that his favorite seasons of the show were seasons one and five, he's more the "one episode at a time/Stand alone" kind of guy and I think if they had not cancelled it, he definitely would have continued with the show (He's been a series regular on TV for twenty years after all), but network television is a very exhausting business and on Angel, he carried most of the workload and was in almost every scene, that's a pretty tough schedule to keep and Angel is a relentlessly dark show and if you look at interviews from that time, you can tell he was a little tired of it.

But the ratings weren't that great. I've just looked it up on Wiki. The ratings were at their best during season 1 (4.8), they held firm during the next two seasons (4.2), the fourth season was the lowest rated (3.65). The fifth saw a slight rise, but it was still 162 in its time slot. I understand that the fall out with Joss was probably the death nail. But to me any show that get five seasons on modest figures like that has done pretty well.

The ratings were up, compared to season 4, and you have to keep in mind that the season average on Wiki counted repeats as well. For TheWB, the numbers were solid. And I think in the male target demo 18-34, the show was second just behind Smallville. Overall, I think it was still one of the Top 5 shows on the Wb behind Smallville, 7th Heaven, Gilmore Girls and Charmed.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

I’ve also read that it was Joss and not the network that insisted on Spike.

If anyone can find quotes on this please post!

It's seem that Joss always planned on bringing Spike over:

At the time, Joss Whedon stopped short of saying that it had to do with injecting some life (pardon the irony) into the dark and less well-received Angel spin-off.
We do know, however, that he was mulling whether to ship him over to Angel even before his death in Buffy. From a 2003 interview with Whedon:

​

WHEDON: It wasn't until the last minute that it was actually decided that he was going to be a regular on the show. When I spoke to you, a) it was true that we didn't know his status, and b) he was about to die on Buffy, so the less about him being on Angel in the press beforehand, the better.​

The fact that it was seen as a ratings boost is implicit in this:

​

INTERVIEWER: Fair enough. But couldn't the WB hold off on announcing it?​

WHEDON: There was no f---ing way. They were very excited about James. They have a shiny blond thing to show people, and they're gonna do it.​

However, the medallion's link to Spike's resurrection doesn't seem to have been planned necessarily from the outset, but it could be one of the "other ideas" that Whedon refers to below:

​

INTERVIEWER: So, how do you plan to resurrect Spike?​

WHEDON: That's a conversation I'm going to be having with the Angel writers very soon.​

INTERVIEWER: There's always Shanshu (the ancient prophecy introduced during Angel's first season that says once a soulful vampire fulfills his destiny, he becomes human).​

WHEDON: It's not quite that simple, although a lot of people have been making reference to that. But that's an interpretation, and ultimately could become the interpretation if we decide to go that way. I have some other ideas. The trick is how to bring him back without losing the integrity of what he did... the sacrifice. If it's just, "Hey, I'm back!" then that whole moment at the end of Buffy is kind of lame now. Like Buffy returning from the dead, it's going to be something that we're going to have to earn and play the ramifications of, possibly without making it so depressing.​

If anything, there seems to have been
a lot of uncertainty at the time about how Spike was to be brought back to life.
(Source)

 

[Mrs Gordo]

@Amber Bunny Slippers thanks! It still doesn’t clarify the “network demanded it” v “Joss demanded it” debate but clearly both were excited about Spike going over to Angel. Which makes sense.

(Side note that the interviewer can F off with the “less well-received spin off,” AtS has good ratings initially...)

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

The interviewer can F off with the “darker and less well-received spin off” stuff. AtS wasn't edgier or more niche. It simply wasn't as good.

 

[Grace]

(Side note that the interviewer can F off with the “less well-received spin off,” AtS has good ratings initially...)

But Angel never had as good of ratings as Buffy, did it? And critically it never seemed to get the same amount of praise that Buffy did. It's not saying it's bad, just not as popular/acclaimed as Buffy, which seems to me to be true.

 

[EarthLogic]

The interviewer can F off with the “darker and less well-received spin off” stuff. AtS wasn't edgier or more niche. It simply wasn't as good.

Well 'darker and less well-received' is true enough - doesn't necessarily equate to edgier or niche. Besides, you can hardly expect the interviewer to call it 'Buffy's sub-par spinoff' or something. They always need to put a positive spin on it.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Well 'darker and less well-received' is true enough - doesn't necessarily equate to edgier or niche. Besides, you can hardly expect the interviewer to call it 'Buffy's sub-par spinoff' or something. They always need to put a positive spin on it.

I guess everything is subjective. This may seem flippant, but I cannot for the life of me imagine a three episode Pylea arc on Buffy.

 

[EarthLogic]

This may seem flippant, but I cannot for the life of me imagine a three episode Pylea arc on Buffy.

Well, yeah - because you're deliberately picking two episodes with vastly contrasting tones. Buffy had plenty of comic farce - Olaf the Troll, anyone? - I could just as easily do this:

but it still wouldn't be a fair comparison.

 

[Mylie]

I guess everything is subjective. This may seem flippant, but I cannot for the life of me imagine a three episode Pylea arc on Buffy.

Ok but it's not like Buffy doesn't also have silly episodes like Beer Bad and Buffy vs. Dracula lol. (Which I love...)

 

[Grace]

I guess everything is subjective. This may seem flippant, but I cannot for the life of me imagine a three episode Pylea arc on Buffy.

I don’t think either show is darker when viewed as a whole, but I think it’s really clear that Angel tried to brand itself that way, especially in the early days, so I think it makes sense that the perception would linger. Plus, Buffy was most critically acclaimed in the early years, which shaped ongoing perceptions of it, too. And the endings of both shows kind of reinforced that as well, with Buffy ending very hopefully and Angel with no resolution at all.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

But Angel never had as good of ratings as Buffy, did it? And critically it never seemed to get the same amount of praise that Buffy did. It's not saying it's bad, just not as popular/acclaimed as Buffy, which seems to me to be true.

For me, Angel was the better show, with definitely more of a cult feel. And the writers started having some fun beginning in S2. Granted, the Pylea arc only required two episodes...by the third one, I must admit that I was yawning a bit. To be perfectly honest, I only remember a few scenes from it; and I own the series. Though I DO recall how much I wanted something bad to happen to Groo. Those cow-like eyes, that hair style, his adoration of Cordelia...the way he spoke. I totally wanted him dead as soon as possible. But Lorne's mum was a delight. "Each morning before I feed, I go out into the hills where the ground is thorny and parched, beat my breast and curse the loins that gave birth to such a cretinous boy-child!" This show has so many insane and unexpected things happening...it's dark, hilarious, and (mostly) well-written. Think about the first time you saw Numfar dance...I nearly fell off my chair laughing. 😂

Honestly, I felt that Buffy a bit over-rated. I enjoy it mostly, and it's fun; but I don't have the obsessive love for it like I have for Angel. "I have no problem spanking men." 😈

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I’m not saying the interviewer is wrong when he says “less well received” - it’s just not very nice to say 😉 Angel, especially in the early seasons did pretty well. Maybe that was in some parts related to being on right after* Buffy. But still it went on for 3 yrs after Buffy moved networks, that isn’t an easy task.

 

[Grace]

For me, Angel was the better show.

I'm certainly not trying to discount anyone's personal opinion. I just thought the assessment was fair.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

I’m not saying the interviewer is wrong when he says “less well received” - it’s just not very nice to say 😉 Angel, especially in the early seasons did pretty well. Maybe that was in some parts related to being on right after* Buffy. But still it went on for 3 yrs after Buffy moved networks, that isn’t an easy task.

I'm certainly not trying to discount anyone's personal opinion. I just thought the assessment was fair.

It was a fair assesment and I wasn't trying to argue. Not at all...I guess my obsessive love for Angel come across a bit more aggressive than I intended. 😛