See redemption and punishment are two different things. One thing is time served in jail (punishment). The other is what you do once you get out (work on redemption). Angel is not redeemed when he gets out of hell. Faith is not redeemed when she busts out of prison. That is what Angel means, incidentally when he says - "our time is never up." You may see it as self-flagellation (again these characters and this framing doesn't work for everyone which is probably why you aren't a bit fan of AtS and I am) but what we know from A&F s9 (when Dru is trying to take people's pain away) is that Angel believes that our pasts, our crimes, our history, however tainted with blood, inform who we are. That the pain and regret of your wrongdoings can be channeled in a positive way so you can become a better person. And Angel really has to believe that to make it through the day because after all how else is he going to get up every morning (er afternoon?) and live with himself after all of the things he did in 150 years of inflicting horrible torture, rape, murder, etc? So it fits with his character. Anyway. We are off topic. They are two different stories. One works for you and one works for me.
Episode Discussion Buffy, Spike, Seeing Red and The Me Too Movement
- Thread starter NikonTheVampire
- Start date
See redemption and punishment are two different things. One thing is time served in jail (punishment). The other is what you do once you get out (work on redemption). Angel is not redeemed when he gets out of hell. Faith is not redeemed when she busts out of prison. That is what Angel means, incidentally when he says - "our time is never up." You may see it as self-flagellation (again these characters and this framing doesn't work for everyone which is probably why you aren't a bit fan of AtS and I am) but what we know from A&F s9 (when Dru is trying to take people's pain away) is that Angel believes that our pasts, our crimes, our history, however tainted with blood, inform who we are. That the pain and regret of your wrongdoings can be channeled in a positive way so you can become a better person. And Angel really has to believe that to make it through the day because after all how else is he going to get up every morning (er afternoon?) and live with himself after all of the things he did in 150 years of inflicting horrible torture, rape, murder, etc? So it fits with his character. Anyway. We are off topic. They are two different stories. One works for you and one works for me.
EarthLogic
Scooby
I don't think that's what he says or means. The idea is more that when you have done truly terrible things, you will never be able to make up for them in terms of numbers and you can obviously never go back and change things either. Everything has a consequence which you have to face sooner or later. But nowhere does he suggest that you can never be forgiven. He certainly struggles to believe in forgiveness for himself because of the extent and magnitude of his crimes, but I don't recall him ever suggesting that to Faith or anyone else.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Also the fact that Spike kinda demands forgiveness 'because he got punished'/at the same time he got punished makes it more hollow for me.
Angel never said 'I was in Hell because of you' to Buffy. Faith never says to Buffy 'I was in prison for 3-ish years because that is what you wanted.'
Like, bad things happen to all characters, but only Spike wants a pat on the head for his; its that romantic 'I have suffered like no other' perspective.
Anyway, I digress but that's why it seems less for me than others (even like Willow or Anya).
Carrie Hopewell
Little girl lost in the woods
Okay, I didn't read the entire thread, and I was asked to add my two cents by @dcai0830 on the "we pay for everything" idea. My tumblr url is actually we-pay-for-everything and I relate to that a lot. I don't see it as "self-flagellation" at all.
You need to consider the context of what Angel said. In this case, Faith was the one punishing herself and giving up. She thought that if she died saving Angel, her debt to society would be paid, because death is the biggest punishment of all, and Angel was a champion and worthy of dying for. So it's punishment and also redemption. But, Faith was tired of fighting and being unhappy, so it's suicide too.
Faith says she did her time. By that, she's not truly referring to her time in jail. She means her time suffering. When you suffer, there's a tendency to see it as punishment. The concept of pain is romanticized, in a way, probably to make it more bearable. Most people whose suffering is emotional associate it with a "payment" to society. You don't know what you're paying for, but it feels like you're paying for something. Because, if you are, then there's a purpose for your pain. This is irrational, but instinctive. The idea that suffering absolves you of your crimes is wrong, but it's common sense. It's almost impossible for someone who regrets their actions and wants to be "cleansed" of their memory and negative emotions not to associate that pain (punishment) with redemption.
If you've done wrong, it feels right to be punished for it. (We're literally raised on a punishment/reward basis.) Redemption means changing and becoming a better person - it doesn't necessarily involve punishment. However, if you want to change, it's because you feel guilty and sad for your actions and, again, that instinct to be punished kicks in. Pain will feel like punishment. So, death - which ironically is the end of pain - feels like both a release and the ultimate punishment. Faith's death, to her, implied a sacrifice (punishment), relief (suicide) and saving someone (redemption). It's a rather complex situation.
Angel's reply "Our time is never up, Faith. We pay for everything." is complex as well. Those two sentences actually mean different things. One has to do with suicide. Often, under extreme circumstances, it feels like life as we know it is over. It feels like our time is up because no one can survive that much emotional and/or physical pain, etc. However, life goes on nearly always, despite what we go through. Our time is never up even when it seems like it is. Faith's time wasn't up even though she felt like giving up. She could still live. She still had things to live for.
Now, the other half of Angel's reply is referring to her redemption, and not her punishment. Angel doesn't want Faith to be punished or to pay for her crimes. He wants her to face the consequences of her actions. He doesn't want her to die so she can avoid dealing with things. She has to "pay" in the sense that she needs to face the consequences of everything she's done. She's strong enough to do it.
You join the two sentences and it adds up to the idea that redemption is suffering through the consequences of all your actions - good or bad - and never giving up when the consequences are too much. Payment isn't punishment. We pay for everything in life. It's a part of living. It's a transaction. You pay for something and get something in return. Faith made mistakes and she pays the consequences. On the other hand, she makes good decisions and she's paid back with happiness or peace. Faith's time isn't never up until she dies a natural death. Our time is never up until we die. Until that day, we should keep going, and paying for our actions, good or bad.
The way I see it, Angel's reply isn't pessimistic or an encouragement for Faith to suffer more. It's about hope, because even in our darkest moments, we still have more to live for, our time is still not up. And it's also realistic. We do pay for everything. And Faith shouldn't die to avoid pain or effort, because that's a part of life, and life has more to offer than what Faith lived through. If you die, there's nothing else, no hope or happiness or peace.
(Haha, I was totally going to say "Thanks for the ask!" like I do on tumblr. *face palm*). Was I too confusing? Give me some feedback.
You need to consider the context of what Angel said. In this case, Faith was the one punishing herself and giving up. She thought that if she died saving Angel, her debt to society would be paid, because death is the biggest punishment of all, and Angel was a champion and worthy of dying for. So it's punishment and also redemption. But, Faith was tired of fighting and being unhappy, so it's suicide too.
Faith says she did her time. By that, she's not truly referring to her time in jail. She means her time suffering. When you suffer, there's a tendency to see it as punishment. The concept of pain is romanticized, in a way, probably to make it more bearable. Most people whose suffering is emotional associate it with a "payment" to society. You don't know what you're paying for, but it feels like you're paying for something. Because, if you are, then there's a purpose for your pain. This is irrational, but instinctive. The idea that suffering absolves you of your crimes is wrong, but it's common sense. It's almost impossible for someone who regrets their actions and wants to be "cleansed" of their memory and negative emotions not to associate that pain (punishment) with redemption.
If you've done wrong, it feels right to be punished for it. (We're literally raised on a punishment/reward basis.) Redemption means changing and becoming a better person - it doesn't necessarily involve punishment. However, if you want to change, it's because you feel guilty and sad for your actions and, again, that instinct to be punished kicks in. Pain will feel like punishment. So, death - which ironically is the end of pain - feels like both a release and the ultimate punishment. Faith's death, to her, implied a sacrifice (punishment), relief (suicide) and saving someone (redemption). It's a rather complex situation.
Angel's reply "Our time is never up, Faith. We pay for everything." is complex as well. Those two sentences actually mean different things. One has to do with suicide. Often, under extreme circumstances, it feels like life as we know it is over. It feels like our time is up because no one can survive that much emotional and/or physical pain, etc. However, life goes on nearly always, despite what we go through. Our time is never up even when it seems like it is. Faith's time wasn't up even though she felt like giving up. She could still live. She still had things to live for.
Now, the other half of Angel's reply is referring to her redemption, and not her punishment. Angel doesn't want Faith to be punished or to pay for her crimes. He wants her to face the consequences of her actions. He doesn't want her to die so she can avoid dealing with things. She has to "pay" in the sense that she needs to face the consequences of everything she's done. She's strong enough to do it.
You join the two sentences and it adds up to the idea that redemption is suffering through the consequences of all your actions - good or bad - and never giving up when the consequences are too much. Payment isn't punishment. We pay for everything in life. It's a part of living. It's a transaction. You pay for something and get something in return. Faith made mistakes and she pays the consequences. On the other hand, she makes good decisions and she's paid back with happiness or peace. Faith's time isn't never up until she dies a natural death. Our time is never up until we die. Until that day, we should keep going, and paying for our actions, good or bad.
The way I see it, Angel's reply isn't pessimistic or an encouragement for Faith to suffer more. It's about hope, because even in our darkest moments, we still have more to live for, our time is still not up. And it's also realistic. We do pay for everything. And Faith shouldn't die to avoid pain or effort, because that's a part of life, and life has more to offer than what Faith lived through. If you die, there's nothing else, no hope or happiness or peace.
(Haha, I was totally going to say "Thanks for the ask!" like I do on tumblr. *face palm*). Was I too confusing? Give me some feedback.
Mrs Gordo
Man I didn't see the Amends parallels of "We pay for everything" until this post... interesting.
W
WillowFromBuffy
Beautifully written!
thetopher
Great post. :)
crazysoulless
Scooby
I really don't like that in a thread about Buffy's sexual assault in the Buffy Summers forum there's so much pro Faith. A character who sexually assaulted Buffy and tricked Riley into sexually assaulting Buffy but the writers refuse to even acknowledge did more than just screw Buffy's boyfriend.
Faith didn't make mistakes. She raped, tortured, and murdered people. She didn't pay. The guilt she lives with is no worse than the guilt Buffy puts herself through for things that aren't even her fault. It's no worse than Buffy having to live with being ripped out of Heaven.
The AI team loved her. Fred admired her. Connor ended up crushing on her. She got credit for stopping the Beast and bringing back the sun even though it was Angelus who did it. She was looked after and pep talked and thanked and hugged. The last time Buffy was in LA (her hometown) she was ordered to go home.
The Potentials loved her and alongside the Scoobies they chose her over Buffy, who was working two jobs (script said Counselor & temp), going on nightly patrol, housing everyone, and training the girls for months. When Buffy was injured, they worried who would protect them but when Faith was injured they worried about her. Giles second guessed Buffy all season but thought Faith taking the girls clubbing was a good idea and that she was doing "wonderful" when she believed the trap the Bringer lied about. She ends the tv series happily dating the only date Buffy went on in years who Faith screwed in Buffy's bed.
By the s8 finale in the comics Buffy was heartbroken and villified by her friends (blamed for Twilight's actions & Giles's death), could only afford to rent a room, and worked as a barista meanwhile Giles left his entire bank account, land, houses, property, library, and even horses to Faith, who also got to live with Angel, the man who Buffy referred to as "the love of my life."
Faith didn't make mistakes. She raped, tortured, and murdered people. She didn't pay. The guilt she lives with is no worse than the guilt Buffy puts herself through for things that aren't even her fault. It's no worse than Buffy having to live with being ripped out of Heaven.
The AI team loved her. Fred admired her. Connor ended up crushing on her. She got credit for stopping the Beast and bringing back the sun even though it was Angelus who did it. She was looked after and pep talked and thanked and hugged. The last time Buffy was in LA (her hometown) she was ordered to go home.
The Potentials loved her and alongside the Scoobies they chose her over Buffy, who was working two jobs (script said Counselor & temp), going on nightly patrol, housing everyone, and training the girls for months. When Buffy was injured, they worried who would protect them but when Faith was injured they worried about her. Giles second guessed Buffy all season but thought Faith taking the girls clubbing was a good idea and that she was doing "wonderful" when she believed the trap the Bringer lied about. She ends the tv series happily dating the only date Buffy went on in years who Faith screwed in Buffy's bed.
By the s8 finale in the comics Buffy was heartbroken and villified by her friends (blamed for Twilight's actions & Giles's death), could only afford to rent a room, and worked as a barista meanwhile Giles left his entire bank account, land, houses, property, library, and even horses to Faith, who also got to live with Angel, the man who Buffy referred to as "the love of my life."
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Okay...enough of this.
Firstly you're equating- at best- a metaphorical rape with actual rape. Since a body-swap can't actually HAPPEN in the real world then- of course- it needs to be treated differently from actual rape. That- to me- would seem obvious. You want to strip the metaphor out of a show built on metaphor then you should do it with every situation and not just the ones you don't like.
Buffy was not present- when Faith and Riley had sex. There was no 'I'm in a coma or unconscious or drugged' real world equivalent; Buffy was entirely absent in every term that matters; her essence was elsewhere.
Faith did what she did; it was awful for Buffy and Riley; it was a violation and crappy. but it was not rape.
Plus Buffy's pain at being victimized is friggin' recognized in 'Sanctuary'- Faith made her feel like a victim; this is stated and Buffy is righteously pissed at Faith. She gets to confront her; the writers knew what they were doing here.
This is the character's pain being actualized by the writers; show me where that happens with Buffy/Spike? When is her pain put over and above that of her perpetrator?
The problems as I see them is that 1) Riley doesn't get this; but that's between Faith and Riley and its (eventually) covered in the comics. And 2) Faith- not thinking that sex is a big deal- uses the whole body-swap thing whilst flirting with Spike; that's something that she later comes to regret.
The Deputy Mayor was absolutely a mistake even though in other threads you have constantly insisted that it was murder. Faith thought it was a vampire; that's why she attacked and reacted the way she did after the fact. She freaked the hell out after because it was a mistake.
The other two murders were indeed murders and- again- Faith eventually holds herself to account for the wrongs she committed; more than Willow or Anya or Spike or Andrew or even Buffy herself who has taken a few lives in the course of her job.
The 'rape' has already been addressed.
Faith did torture Wesley in a desperate attempt to get Angel to kill her; it was awful- no question- but she and Wesley later worked together and seemed to have come to an understanding; again Wesley does get to confront Faith with what he did to her and his pain is recognized and dealt with so they can- at least in some respects- move past it and forge something better than they had.
From his perspective Wesley is very different from where he was 3 years ago; he's done a few bad things himself.
This is incorrect; Faith- in the context of the show- paid more for what they did than any other character besides Angel. Buffy wanted her dead; she almost dies; Buffy wanted her in jail; Faith stayed in jail for years and only left because Angel- her only real buddy- was in extreme danger (he was in a lil' jar and Angelus was hamming it up).
Other characters get do-overs (Anya gets two!) or pep talks or having a cry and then almost instant acceptance; and sometimes they get trips to England and coddled and pep talked all in one.
How can we compare two states of guilt? Why would we want to? To me this seems needlessly pointless. I mean, its true that Buffy does put have the whole martyr thing going on but she also has a loving support structure; Mom/Sister, good friends and a solid Watcher to help her deal with all that blame and stuff.
That matters when- I dunno- trying to quantify who 'suffers' from guilt more. People gave a damn about Buffy all the time; one person gave a damn about Faith when she needed it; now yes this is mostly her fault since she had plenty of chances but it still doesn't change the fact that she has had to deal with guilt mostly on her own whereas Buffy has always had someone to help her.
Good for Buffy, she's earned it but alslo Faith has earned a second shot.
Eh I'd say false, since Buffy tried to commit suicide by dance out of ennui and Faith wanted to commit suicide by vampire out of despair; Buffy suffers from a lot of self hate which is at least akin to Faith's self-loathing a couple of years earlier; Faith 'hits herself' face and Buffy pounds on Spike and its obvious that a lot of it is about her and how she feels about herself- its actually a direct parallel.
Really? They didn't even know her; in fact Cordelia states- rightly- who Faith is, where she has been and why she has been there. Faith doesn't contradict ('25 to life, for the record'), Faith says that Cordelia 'has every right to feel that way' but that they haven't got a lot of time because of the big honkin' evil.
Gunn really only likes her because she seemed to respect his abilities and she smacked Connor on the nose but its not like Faith went out of her way to be chummy- she's not there to make friends.
*sigh* No she didn't, she merely compared herself 'unfavorably to 'supergirl' when she was confronted by Angelus; Gunn rightly puts Fred straight with some pep. Also Faith heard none of this because she was busy failing to stop Angelus when he had Wesley by the throat; she had her own 'I suck' issues to deal with.
Yes. The horny adolescent crushed on the gorgeous super-powered slayer mostly because she made no bones about playing the alpha dog putting him in his place. Apparently Connor likes this even though he also clearly has strong feelings for Cordelia.
Again Faith never sees this so why is it Faith's fault and how does it effect her? Would it make her feel better about herself having Angel's son mooning over her?
You should stretch before you reach this far. Only momentarily do the gang assume that Faith was successful, by the next episode (hours later) they all knew the true sitch since Wesley informed them that Faith got her ass kicked and that Angelus was still loose.
Still Faith got beaten to a bloody pulp; is that any sort of payment? Almost dying? Does it give you a happy? I guess they should've all sneered at her efforts as they laughed and pointed...
Just...what?
Okay, if we're still talking about the Angelus arc then Faith was looked after...when she was dying in 'Orpheus' and that's it. I mean, what do you want? Seriously? She was in a drug-induced coma and Wesley carrying her and put her to bed to be comfortable. So she could die comfortably I guess. Yep, that's coddling a murderer alright.
Oh, I guess Lorne sang to her because he's empathic and also seemed familiar with how bad the drug was and its effects; so he wanted to comfort her; what a jerk.
Faith certainly wasn't looked after by Wesley; she got to clean herself up (I hope Wesley scrubbed the shower afterwards to get the murder stench out!)and then she shrugged off Wesley's concern, downplayed her obvious pain and got back out there.
Faith never got a pep talk from anyone. Ever. Except the Mayor.
Oh, I'm sorry, she got the 'you've always been sick/you're a rabid dog who should've been killed' talk from Wesley. Perhaps you think this is pep because maybe you agree, I couldn't begin to fathom.
I think Angel was the only one that thanked Faith. Again, why not thank somebody for risking pain and death in order to help save the world. Does Buffy not get 'you're awesome' pep talks when she does indeed do something awesome?
Everyone else; Wesley and Faith have a mutual respect thing going on as way of goodbye; Connor is sulking when Faith gives him some comfort, Fred is busily gushing over Willow (this is what admiration looks like fyi), and Cordelia ain't there.
I guess Gunn gives her some thanks for knocking the stuffing out of Connor after Connor punched him out. It's pretty shallow stuff in the way of thanks tbh.
Faith never got hugged, she doesn't like them; she made a joke about it because she was busting Angel's chops for actually thanking her; its what friends do.
Faith does get; beaten to a pulp, punched in the face numerous times for no reason by so-called allies; falsely accused of things, blown up, made to feel responsible for the deaths of Potentials WITHOUT the benefit of any sort of pep talk or commiseration afterwards. These are things that actually happen, not made up things because I don't like somebody and so have to justify the dislike.
Yes, because she verbally cut into Angel despite getting exactly what she wanted; she was totally spiteful towards him about her great new relationship and so he shouted at her. He then went to apologize and also Buffy conceded that he did have a point or two.
Finally, finally you have the mere semblance of a point. Faith was indeed the 'cool aunt' type who didn't have to discipline the slayer wannabees or impart any knowledge; she went out of her way to avoid them and paled around with them instead; Faith thought she was there as simple muscle and acted as such. The potentials were not her responsibility- as she saw it.
Not that she didn't try and lend support to Buffy as much as she could.
Oh boo hoo- she sucked at both jobs and was fired from them before Faith came along. Relevance?
Yes, we get it, the Potentials can act like scared teenagers and are perhaps a bit fickle when it comes to who they trust with their lives ; how is this Faith's fault?
Also doesn't Amanda say that the bad stuff happened because 'they were being punished' for picking Faith over Buffy? So actually they still seem more concerned for their own safety than the girl who's at death's door.
At least Buffy shows more concern than you do.
Giles merely stopped supporting Buffy because of her increasingly questionable and autocratic decisions; letting 'agent of The First' trigger-vamps roam free because he's 'oh so cute' and such.
Buffy shut out Giles sound advice (he said that the vineyard was probably a trap and Buffy said 'well so's your face!' or whatever) and so he did the same. If he's bad then so is she.
Incidentally Faith took the girls to have a good time and relax; It's a good idea and its actually what you do with off-duty soldiers (you lead somebody into battle where they might die then they are soldiers); and I have a problem with Buffy having a problem with it. Buffy still insists on calling them children; Faith says that they aren't children because they had to go fight in the vineyard. Buffy punches Faith in the face.
Faith was showing momentary doubt over the 'agreed upon by all' plan and Giles did what he did and gave her some support because of HOW she was leading; she was soliciting and listening to others whilst being decisive. A balance that Buffy seemed to have lost at this point.
So you're mad that Wood picked Faith over Buffy even though that's not what happened; Buffy picked Spike over Wood for god-knows-why and so Wood moved on. Buffy watched Spike burn up and later Faith got dumped by Wood. Which girl won? I'm not sure it was even a contest but apparently you did...
For the vast majority of S8 Buffy had a friggin' CASTLE and riches (that she stole) and hot slayers lusting after her, not to mention Xander being her solid right-hand and great friend throughout.
This is whilst Faith has been dumped in a second-rate Hellmouth and is being called on by her ex to kill vampire children and other lovely slaying-jobs.
Then Giles tries to turn Faith into an assassin again (to save Buffy) whilst Buffy eventually becomes an uber-powered Superman type and then- in actuality- 'betrays herself' to Twilight-Angel and has to suffer the consequences; the 'consequences' being that Giles is killed and she loses her 'General' status with the other slayers; but she still has all her friends to fall back on- they never abandon her despite her near-apocalyptic shag.
And in S9 whilst Buffy spends large amounts of time whining about 'nothing being her fault' and getting comforted by her stalker Faith is looking after crazy-Angel, keeping him from screwing up on his 'revive Giles' plan, looking after a group of slayers and protecting Angel's existence from their vengeance.
By the end of the season all of Buffy's friends have apologized to her for being so mean to her and she gets her scythe back despite doing nothing to earn either, (she also gets Giles back btw. Consequences averted!)
Meanwhile a newly resurrected Giles picks Buffy over Faith and she still gives him back all his money.
But- and here's the thing- I don't resent Buffy for the things that happen to her in the comics; I don't dislike or hate her because of them, on the whole I just think they make her a less interesting character; which is a shame.
One of the reasons I like Faith is because a lot of the things you stated were factually untrue (sorry) and I LIKE that; I like adversity for a character; its usually dramatic and interesting for the underdog to maybe not get their due.
On the one hand I might like it if the character I like gets some acknowledgement but overall, if it doesn't happen, well I'll always root for them anyway.
*ahem* So...that whole Buffy and Spike thing could've been handled better right? In my mind it probably would've been better if the S7 Buffy and Spike relationship never got a whiff of the L word, that it was about bonding and friendship instead of co-dependence and guilt.
Firstly you're equating- at best- a metaphorical rape with actual rape. Since a body-swap can't actually HAPPEN in the real world then- of course- it needs to be treated differently from actual rape. That- to me- would seem obvious. You want to strip the metaphor out of a show built on metaphor then you should do it with every situation and not just the ones you don't like.
Buffy was not present- when Faith and Riley had sex. There was no 'I'm in a coma or unconscious or drugged' real world equivalent; Buffy was entirely absent in every term that matters; her essence was elsewhere.
Faith did what she did; it was awful for Buffy and Riley; it was a violation and crappy. but it was not rape.
Plus Buffy's pain at being victimized is friggin' recognized in 'Sanctuary'- Faith made her feel like a victim; this is stated and Buffy is righteously pissed at Faith. She gets to confront her; the writers knew what they were doing here.
This is the character's pain being actualized by the writers; show me where that happens with Buffy/Spike? When is her pain put over and above that of her perpetrator?
The problems as I see them is that 1) Riley doesn't get this; but that's between Faith and Riley and its (eventually) covered in the comics. And 2) Faith- not thinking that sex is a big deal- uses the whole body-swap thing whilst flirting with Spike; that's something that she later comes to regret.
The Deputy Mayor was absolutely a mistake even though in other threads you have constantly insisted that it was murder. Faith thought it was a vampire; that's why she attacked and reacted the way she did after the fact. She freaked the hell out after because it was a mistake.
The other two murders were indeed murders and- again- Faith eventually holds herself to account for the wrongs she committed; more than Willow or Anya or Spike or Andrew or even Buffy herself who has taken a few lives in the course of her job.
The 'rape' has already been addressed.
Faith did torture Wesley in a desperate attempt to get Angel to kill her; it was awful- no question- but she and Wesley later worked together and seemed to have come to an understanding; again Wesley does get to confront Faith with what he did to her and his pain is recognized and dealt with so they can- at least in some respects- move past it and forge something better than they had.
From his perspective Wesley is very different from where he was 3 years ago; he's done a few bad things himself.
This is incorrect; Faith- in the context of the show- paid more for what they did than any other character besides Angel. Buffy wanted her dead; she almost dies; Buffy wanted her in jail; Faith stayed in jail for years and only left because Angel- her only real buddy- was in extreme danger (he was in a lil' jar and Angelus was hamming it up).
Other characters get do-overs (Anya gets two!) or pep talks or having a cry and then almost instant acceptance; and sometimes they get trips to England and coddled and pep talked all in one.
How can we compare two states of guilt? Why would we want to? To me this seems needlessly pointless. I mean, its true that Buffy does put have the whole martyr thing going on but she also has a loving support structure; Mom/Sister, good friends and a solid Watcher to help her deal with all that blame and stuff.
That matters when- I dunno- trying to quantify who 'suffers' from guilt more. People gave a damn about Buffy all the time; one person gave a damn about Faith when she needed it; now yes this is mostly her fault since she had plenty of chances but it still doesn't change the fact that she has had to deal with guilt mostly on her own whereas Buffy has always had someone to help her.
Good for Buffy, she's earned it but alslo Faith has earned a second shot.
Eh I'd say false, since Buffy tried to commit suicide by dance out of ennui and Faith wanted to commit suicide by vampire out of despair; Buffy suffers from a lot of self hate which is at least akin to Faith's self-loathing a couple of years earlier; Faith 'hits herself' face and Buffy pounds on Spike and its obvious that a lot of it is about her and how she feels about herself- its actually a direct parallel.
Really? They didn't even know her; in fact Cordelia states- rightly- who Faith is, where she has been and why she has been there. Faith doesn't contradict ('25 to life, for the record'), Faith says that Cordelia 'has every right to feel that way' but that they haven't got a lot of time because of the big honkin' evil.
Gunn really only likes her because she seemed to respect his abilities and she smacked Connor on the nose but its not like Faith went out of her way to be chummy- she's not there to make friends.
*sigh* No she didn't, she merely compared herself 'unfavorably to 'supergirl' when she was confronted by Angelus; Gunn rightly puts Fred straight with some pep. Also Faith heard none of this because she was busy failing to stop Angelus when he had Wesley by the throat; she had her own 'I suck' issues to deal with.
Yes. The horny adolescent crushed on the gorgeous super-powered slayer mostly because she made no bones about playing the alpha dog putting him in his place. Apparently Connor likes this even though he also clearly has strong feelings for Cordelia.
Again Faith never sees this so why is it Faith's fault and how does it effect her? Would it make her feel better about herself having Angel's son mooning over her?
You should stretch before you reach this far. Only momentarily do the gang assume that Faith was successful, by the next episode (hours later) they all knew the true sitch since Wesley informed them that Faith got her ass kicked and that Angelus was still loose.
Still Faith got beaten to a bloody pulp; is that any sort of payment? Almost dying? Does it give you a happy? I guess they should've all sneered at her efforts as they laughed and pointed...
Just...what?
Okay, if we're still talking about the Angelus arc then Faith was looked after...when she was dying in 'Orpheus' and that's it. I mean, what do you want? Seriously? She was in a drug-induced coma and Wesley carrying her and put her to bed to be comfortable. So she could die comfortably I guess. Yep, that's coddling a murderer alright.
Oh, I guess Lorne sang to her because he's empathic and also seemed familiar with how bad the drug was and its effects; so he wanted to comfort her; what a jerk.
Faith certainly wasn't looked after by Wesley; she got to clean herself up (I hope Wesley scrubbed the shower afterwards to get the murder stench out!)and then she shrugged off Wesley's concern, downplayed her obvious pain and got back out there.
Faith never got a pep talk from anyone. Ever. Except the Mayor.
Oh, I'm sorry, she got the 'you've always been sick/you're a rabid dog who should've been killed' talk from Wesley. Perhaps you think this is pep because maybe you agree, I couldn't begin to fathom.
I think Angel was the only one that thanked Faith. Again, why not thank somebody for risking pain and death in order to help save the world. Does Buffy not get 'you're awesome' pep talks when she does indeed do something awesome?
Everyone else; Wesley and Faith have a mutual respect thing going on as way of goodbye; Connor is sulking when Faith gives him some comfort, Fred is busily gushing over Willow (this is what admiration looks like fyi), and Cordelia ain't there.
I guess Gunn gives her some thanks for knocking the stuffing out of Connor after Connor punched him out. It's pretty shallow stuff in the way of thanks tbh.
Faith never got hugged, she doesn't like them; she made a joke about it because she was busting Angel's chops for actually thanking her; its what friends do.
Faith does get; beaten to a pulp, punched in the face numerous times for no reason by so-called allies; falsely accused of things, blown up, made to feel responsible for the deaths of Potentials WITHOUT the benefit of any sort of pep talk or commiseration afterwards. These are things that actually happen, not made up things because I don't like somebody and so have to justify the dislike.
Yes, because she verbally cut into Angel despite getting exactly what she wanted; she was totally spiteful towards him about her great new relationship and so he shouted at her. He then went to apologize and also Buffy conceded that he did have a point or two.
Finally, finally you have the mere semblance of a point. Faith was indeed the 'cool aunt' type who didn't have to discipline the slayer wannabees or impart any knowledge; she went out of her way to avoid them and paled around with them instead; Faith thought she was there as simple muscle and acted as such. The potentials were not her responsibility- as she saw it.
Not that she didn't try and lend support to Buffy as much as she could.
Oh boo hoo- she sucked at both jobs and was fired from them before Faith came along. Relevance?
Yes, we get it, the Potentials can act like scared teenagers and are perhaps a bit fickle when it comes to who they trust with their lives ; how is this Faith's fault?
Also doesn't Amanda say that the bad stuff happened because 'they were being punished' for picking Faith over Buffy? So actually they still seem more concerned for their own safety than the girl who's at death's door.
At least Buffy shows more concern than you do.
Giles merely stopped supporting Buffy because of her increasingly questionable and autocratic decisions; letting 'agent of The First' trigger-vamps roam free because he's 'oh so cute' and such.
Buffy shut out Giles sound advice (he said that the vineyard was probably a trap and Buffy said 'well so's your face!' or whatever) and so he did the same. If he's bad then so is she.
Incidentally Faith took the girls to have a good time and relax; It's a good idea and its actually what you do with off-duty soldiers (you lead somebody into battle where they might die then they are soldiers); and I have a problem with Buffy having a problem with it. Buffy still insists on calling them children; Faith says that they aren't children because they had to go fight in the vineyard. Buffy punches Faith in the face.
Faith was showing momentary doubt over the 'agreed upon by all' plan and Giles did what he did and gave her some support because of HOW she was leading; she was soliciting and listening to others whilst being decisive. A balance that Buffy seemed to have lost at this point.
So you're mad that Wood picked Faith over Buffy even though that's not what happened; Buffy picked Spike over Wood for god-knows-why and so Wood moved on. Buffy watched Spike burn up and later Faith got dumped by Wood. Which girl won? I'm not sure it was even a contest but apparently you did...
For the vast majority of S8 Buffy had a friggin' CASTLE and riches (that she stole) and hot slayers lusting after her, not to mention Xander being her solid right-hand and great friend throughout.
This is whilst Faith has been dumped in a second-rate Hellmouth and is being called on by her ex to kill vampire children and other lovely slaying-jobs.
Then Giles tries to turn Faith into an assassin again (to save Buffy) whilst Buffy eventually becomes an uber-powered Superman type and then- in actuality- 'betrays herself' to Twilight-Angel and has to suffer the consequences; the 'consequences' being that Giles is killed and she loses her 'General' status with the other slayers; but she still has all her friends to fall back on- they never abandon her despite her near-apocalyptic shag.
And in S9 whilst Buffy spends large amounts of time whining about 'nothing being her fault' and getting comforted by her stalker Faith is looking after crazy-Angel, keeping him from screwing up on his 'revive Giles' plan, looking after a group of slayers and protecting Angel's existence from their vengeance.
By the end of the season all of Buffy's friends have apologized to her for being so mean to her and she gets her scythe back despite doing nothing to earn either, (she also gets Giles back btw. Consequences averted!)
Meanwhile a newly resurrected Giles picks Buffy over Faith and she still gives him back all his money.
But- and here's the thing- I don't resent Buffy for the things that happen to her in the comics; I don't dislike or hate her because of them, on the whole I just think they make her a less interesting character; which is a shame.
One of the reasons I like Faith is because a lot of the things you stated were factually untrue (sorry) and I LIKE that; I like adversity for a character; its usually dramatic and interesting for the underdog to maybe not get their due.
On the one hand I might like it if the character I like gets some acknowledgement but overall, if it doesn't happen, well I'll always root for them anyway.
*ahem* So...that whole Buffy and Spike thing could've been handled better right? In my mind it probably would've been better if the S7 Buffy and Spike relationship never got a whiff of the L word, that it was about bonding and friendship instead of co-dependence and guilt.
GraceK
Love this whole post :)
No he never even brings it up to her. But imagine the outcry if he had? If he had even shared any of his trauma related to a hundred years of torture with Buffy. I would imagine fans would have taken up pitch forks. I wouldn’t have like it one bit either.
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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But he should have. Would have been a much better story.
When Angel comes back to Sunnydale that time and Buffy told him to go away, he could have been like "what, like for those hundred years you sent me unjustly to a hell dimension? Go away like that again?"
Or when Buffy questions his love he could have been like "When you sent me away to a hell dimension all I did for 100 years was think about coming back to you, being the man you needed me to be. You sent me to hell and I never stopped loving you."
Oh yeah. That would have been great.
Ethan Reigns
Scooby
You are pretending there was a choice here. Either Buffy sent Angel to hell alone or Angel and everyone else in the world went to hell. Buffy did not alter Angel's fate one bit, just that of the rest of the world. And the rest of the world remaining in place meant Angel had somewhere to come back t0.
Sure she had a choice. Look at The Gift. She was planning to let the whole world go to hell if it meant sacrificing Dawn until she realized at the last moment there was another way. In Becoming, Buffy did what she had to do. It was heroic but it was a choice. It wasn't a good one but it was a choice. The person to blame for Angel being in hell is Angelus not Buffy. That is not a question. But nevertheless, Buffy did alter Angel's fate - she sent him to hell for 100 years. She had to. It was the ONLY valid choice. My point is - Angel never brings it up. He never discusses his trauma or mentions being tortured etc. He probably knows that the reason he was sent to hell was as a result of his demon's decisions. Same as Spike getting a soul was as a result of his demon's decisions.
DeadlyDuo
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I disagree to an extent. If we take Buffy, Riley and Faith to the real world and make Buffy and Faith identical twins (the closest real world example to a "body swap"), then Faith could pretend to be Buffy in order to sleep with Riley. Riley would think he's sleeping with Buffy, when in actuality he's sleeping with Faith.
I disagree. Firstly, it's rape of Riley by deception. Riley consented to sleep with Buffy, not Faith, ergo Faith slept with Riley without his consent.
Secondly, it's still Buffy's body whether she's in it or not. What ever Faith does has an impact on Buffy. If Faith slept with lots of guys and either got pregnant or caught a disease, it's Buffy's body that has to deal with those consequences against Buffy's will. Buffy was lucky that it was only Riley that Faith used her body to sleep with (someone buffy would've consented to sleeping with anyway, however that is not the point). Faith could've done a lot worse with Buffy's body than she did, even something that would have long term consequences after the body swap was undone. It's Buffy that would've suffered not Faith.
In regards to Buffy and Riley and whether Buffy was raped (Riley was), there's no clear answer. Buffy consents to sleep with Riley on numerous occasions and there's no reason to believe she wouldn't have consented to sleep with him on that occasion. However, because she wasn't in her body at the time, she was unable to give consent to sleep with Riley. This then leads to the even more muddy question: Is Riley technically a rapist? We know he would never do that to Buffy in normal circumstances, however, because she wasn't in her body at the time, he technically slept with her without her consent.
Thing is though, the audience shouldn't have to watch a different show to get a resolution to a plot point in the main show. BtVS should've dealt with Buffy's feelings on the body swap, not AtS.
Again, the audience shouldn't have to resort to a different source in order to get a resolution to a plot point in the main show. Faith later regretting her actions doesn't change the nature of her actions. She might regret the whole body swap and having sex with Riley, but that doesn't change the fact that she still raped him by deception.
In television/movies, Female on male rape tends to be either brushed under the carpet (and thus not seen as serious unlike male on female rape) or it gets played for laughs. Were Buffy on today, then it might take the opportunity to actually explore that issue. However, back then I don't think it was seen as an issue. Faith does have form for not taking no for an answer eg Xander. Had Angel not stopped her, who knows how far Faith would've gone.
EarthLogic
Scooby
That's a very good point! Hadn't thought of it that way - probably because I watched and was invested in both shows. But for those who only ever viewed BtVS you're absolutely right that the resolution for Buffy's side of the story should have happened there - if not then, then at a later point.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
That really has nothing to do with Buffy though- I actually say that what Faith did to Riley- and how it was addressed- was handled poorly.
Yes but when people say 'Faith raped somebody' they aren't talking about technical, legal definitions, they equate it with what Spike did to Buffy; the violent sexual assault that left her emotionally shattered.
I mean, technically, legally speaking a lot of characters do bad things.
Not really. Buffy only knew because Riley told her so it didn't effect her up until that moment. This was the right thing to do- telling the truth- but I'm just pointing out that Buffy didn't realize anything was wrong until Riley told her.
But none of that happened so its irrelevant. Faith doesn't even TRY to sleep with anyone else.
Is Faith gonna be blamed for things that she could've done? Surely what she didn't do should inform her motivations as a character; she didn't rampage, she didn't slaughter all of Buffy's friends; she was 'Buffy' for good, in her mind free and clear and getting a fresh start, so why would she do any of the things you describe to somebody that she'd already 'beaten'.
You seem to be saying that the body-swap was merely the start of some sort of revenge kick when it was not; in Faith's twisted imaginings it was an equaling of the scales; Buffy takes her life so she takes Buffy's. Permanently.
It is clear; its morally wrong, a violation, a 'metaphorical rape' that people know is wrong when they view it and so they assign a real world name to it; the problem is that you can't; just like with a lot of skeezy metaphor stuff that happens on the show.
I mean, what is possession as the show depicts it? What did that hyena-spirit do to Xander? If Xander had managed to overpower Buffy in 'The Pack' then would the hyena-spirit have raped Xander? That's basically what you're saying.
Well damn I guess we should tell you that Spike actually survived the battle of the Hellmouth and went over to the other show as a ghost then vampire. 😉 But apparently that plot thread should've been resolved on Buffy. Same with Cordelia's arc I guess, and Harmony's, and Wesley's, etc.
Just because it happened on another show doesn't mean its not important.
Well I'm pretty sure Faith would've killed him, not raped him. All their clothes remained on throughout and Faith stopped kissing him as she started choking him.
The 'gender swap' doesn't actually work here since Faith is- in essence- the man in this situation; she is much more physically powerful than Xander and can force herself on him if she chose to.
DeadlyDuo
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So what you're saying is that, because Buffy wasn't aware that Faith had used her body for sex, then that makes what Faith did perfectly okay because Buffy wasn't aware that is what Faith had done until she was told by someone else?
It is relevant. Faith might not have slept with anyone else in the time frame that she had Buffy's body, but that's not to say she wouldn't have if she'd had Buffy's body for longer, nor if she knew Buffy would get her body back and just wanted to screw Buffy over. Are you suggesting that Faith would've remained celibate for the rest of her life if she'd kept Buffy's body?
Spike didn't kill Joyce in Lovers Walk, does he get a cookie just for not murdering somebody? No, so why should Faith?
Faith wasn't expecting Buffy to get her body back so soon. Who knows what she would've done had she had more time or known she was on a time limit. As I said above, it's unlikely Faith would've remained celibate for the rest of her life had she kept Buffy's body. A lot more men would've been entering Buffy's body without her consent.
It wasn't a "metaphorical" rape, it was a rape. A metaphor is a figure of speech where you assign a word to something without literally implying it eg Spike said the hellmouth would put colour in Drusilla's cheeks "metaphorically speaking" but it wouldn't literally put colour in her cheeks. You get allusions eg Tillow's magic sessions alluded to their growing relationship. What Faith did to Buffy and Riley was not a metaphor, it was a literal thing.
That's exactly what I'm saying. It would have raped both Xander and Buffy, because neither would've consented to sleeping with each other in those circumstances. Had Buffy forced herself on Xander in BB&B, then that would've been rape of both of them.
Those are all different.
1. Spike's revival happened after Buffy had ended. He didn't just turn up again on Buffy alive and well with no explanation whatsoever. if you didn't watch Angel then Spike died at the end of Season 7 and that's it.
2. Harmony, Cordelia, and Wesley weren't the central character in a show called BUFFY the Vampire Slayer. Their stories could continue away from Sunnydale.
Buffy dealing with her feelings about what Faith did to her should've happened on her OWN show, not that of her ex-lover's. That's like Buffy running to AtS to cry about the AR then going back to her own show for Season 7 and being ok with Spike. Her emotional reactions to events that happen to her need to occur on her own show. Another example would be Joyce's death, Buffy running over to AtS to cry about it, then being perfectly happy on her own show. If you don't watch AtS, then it makes no sense. FYI you shouldn't have to force the audience to watch a spin off in order to make sense of the main show.
How do you know she wasn't performing non-consensual erotic asphyxiation on him. She probably would've killed him as she sat atop him, but it's also known that during erotic asphyxiation, a man becomes erect. At the very least Faith sexually assaults Xander before she tries to kill him.
So what you're essentially saying is rape is a man crime because a man is stronger than a woman and can force himself on her because of his strength? Therefore, because Faith is stronger than Xander, that makes her the "man" and him the "woman" in this situation?
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
I never, ever said it was 'okay', I said it was wrong.
Again, why is 'might but didn't' at all relevant when proscribing blame or guilt?
No he shouldn't get a cookie but nobody ever says 'Spike could've killed Joyce so therefore he's a bad man!', they usually say 'oh Spike didn't harm Joyce, why is that? Why did he go to her and pour his heart out?'
What characters DON'T do when they COULD informs their state of mind and purposes.
With all due respect that's a...simplistic take on the term metaphor given all of what goes on in the show (or in books, or classic works of fiction or what have you); for example Buffy and Angel sleep together in S2 and Angel becomes Angelus; this goes on to work on several levels; the jack-ass boyfriend who shows his true colors after sex; the death of innocence, 'loosing yourself in passion can be dangerous', the 'virgin who dies after having sex' trope (subverted) and a few more besides; all sorts of layers that can be stripped away if you take out the metaphor.
No metaphor and its just 'Angel is a jerk after he gets laid'.
Faith body-swapping with Buffy was because she wanted to 'become' Buffy and no longer be her crappy self; in was an invasion and a violation and it was- for the millionth time- wrong.
No, they are not. Information about a character is information. Crossover magic and characters continuing their stories happens lots of times; otherwise you might as well complain that you never found out Buffy's reaction to Angel stalking her on Thanksgiving in S4; you'd be gutted if you were a Bangel and it wasn't even dealt with on Buffy's own damn show. It's her and Angel, it matters to her so where is the rest of that story?
Oh, but it did. In 'Superstar' Buffy is allowed to 'get over' what happened to her and recover in her relationship with Riley. I was only talking about her anger at her perpetrator- Faith- and she's on a different show.
But hey, sometimes Buffy doesn't even get the right to be angry EVER at her attempted rapist, so that's something. Sometimes the perpetrator comes back and actually plays the victim and she has to accept it. So it could be worse.
*slowly* I know for definite what I was shown and that's about it. I can't know what was going to happen because I didn't see it.
See, I blame people for what I see them do not what they might've done but didn't.
When did I say this? I merely said that in this scenario the 'man' was Faith because she is the physically stronger, more sexually aggressive person. Of course women can commit rape; Willow does it to Tara for one; denial of consent by removing memories is the real world equivalent of roofie-ing somebody to go to bed with them.
crazysoulless
Scooby
Dracula sneaking into Buffy's bedroom and biting her while she sat half naked in bed, that's a rape metaphor. The Shadow Men chaining Buffy in a cave so she'd be "knocked up" with demon mist, that's a rape metaphor. Rack feeling Willow's life essence or whatever he was doing and saying "you taste like strawberries", that's a rape metaphor.
Faith having actual sex with Buffy's body is actual rape. Faith basically kidnapping Buffy's body and doing sexual things with Buffy's genitals is rape.
In Sanctuary, Buffy did get to vent her anger to Faith. And do you know what happened? Faith shut her down. Faith victimized herself and accused Buffy of being a control freak who doesn't know what it's like to feel powerless. She left town with Angel beaming with pride at Faith for doing the thing that he was pissed at Buffy for wanting, the thing that he was willing to physically fight Buffy to prevent. We're supposed to think of Faith as heroic and Buffy as cold hearted. He went to Sunnydale to apologize for the last comments he made, not prioritizing Faith's emotions over the emotions of her victims. He couldn't see things from their perspective because he was too busy over identifying with the path of atonement.
Imagine if when Buffy vented her anger at Giles in Helpless, Angel jumped between them and when she said "touch me and I'll kill you" he told her, "Not going to happen." If Angel punched Buffy in the face and told her she has no idea what Giles is feeling.
For the record, if I call Faith a murderer it has nothing to do with the Deputy Mayor. I never mention Finch. I say Faith is a murderer because of Prof. Worth the volcanologist, the guy whose apartment she used to torture Wesley in, and all of the attempted murders she committed on Xander, Willow, Buffy, Angel, & Wesley.
Do people still see Dirty Girls as a trap? Why? Buffy went there expecting Caleb & the Bringers. They got there and it was Caleb & the Bringers. She talked to Wood about the Potentials needing to be tested more in battle before the big war and he said "then maybe you should test them." They just lost a battle. That doesn't make it a trap. Angel was knocked unconscious by Caleb. Does that suddenly mean Angel fell into a trap? No. They were eventually going to have to confront him in order to know how to fight him. Buffy lost her first fight with Glory. It doesn't make it a trap.
Now kidnapping a Bringer, torturing him until he gives you information, and then believing that info and getting blown up, that's a trap. They went in expecting a secret weapons cache. That was their sole reason for going there, to retrieve it.
The Potentials going clubbing makes no sense because they acted so terrified of fighting Caleb & the Bringers and yet they all left the house in the middle of the night without weapons and without the most powerful members in the group in order to "let off steam". They were in Sunnydale because Potentials were being hunted and stabbed to death all throughout the world. Which they all seemed to forget while out getting drunk.
I don't like how things happened with Spike but Buffy did get to vent as much, or rather as little, as she did to Faith. Neither was good enough.
"Ask me again why I could never love you."
"I stopped you. Something I should've done a long time ago."
"Don't even start by saying you're sorry."
"Then why the Hell are you here?"
"Everything about you is wrong."
"Skittish? That's not the word I would use to describe it. You tried to RAPE me."
"You thought you'd just come back and be with me? This is all you get. Now talk."
"That's what this is about, you're feeling sorry for yourself?"
"You think you have some insight into the world now that your soul is drenched in blood? You don't know me. You don't even know you."
"You really have a problem with that word, don't you?"
Faith having actual sex with Buffy's body is actual rape. Faith basically kidnapping Buffy's body and doing sexual things with Buffy's genitals is rape.
In Sanctuary, Buffy did get to vent her anger to Faith. And do you know what happened? Faith shut her down. Faith victimized herself and accused Buffy of being a control freak who doesn't know what it's like to feel powerless. She left town with Angel beaming with pride at Faith for doing the thing that he was pissed at Buffy for wanting, the thing that he was willing to physically fight Buffy to prevent. We're supposed to think of Faith as heroic and Buffy as cold hearted. He went to Sunnydale to apologize for the last comments he made, not prioritizing Faith's emotions over the emotions of her victims. He couldn't see things from their perspective because he was too busy over identifying with the path of atonement.
Imagine if when Buffy vented her anger at Giles in Helpless, Angel jumped between them and when she said "touch me and I'll kill you" he told her, "Not going to happen." If Angel punched Buffy in the face and told her she has no idea what Giles is feeling.
For the record, if I call Faith a murderer it has nothing to do with the Deputy Mayor. I never mention Finch. I say Faith is a murderer because of Prof. Worth the volcanologist, the guy whose apartment she used to torture Wesley in, and all of the attempted murders she committed on Xander, Willow, Buffy, Angel, & Wesley.
Do people still see Dirty Girls as a trap? Why? Buffy went there expecting Caleb & the Bringers. They got there and it was Caleb & the Bringers. She talked to Wood about the Potentials needing to be tested more in battle before the big war and he said "then maybe you should test them." They just lost a battle. That doesn't make it a trap. Angel was knocked unconscious by Caleb. Does that suddenly mean Angel fell into a trap? No. They were eventually going to have to confront him in order to know how to fight him. Buffy lost her first fight with Glory. It doesn't make it a trap.
Now kidnapping a Bringer, torturing him until he gives you information, and then believing that info and getting blown up, that's a trap. They went in expecting a secret weapons cache. That was their sole reason for going there, to retrieve it.
The Potentials going clubbing makes no sense because they acted so terrified of fighting Caleb & the Bringers and yet they all left the house in the middle of the night without weapons and without the most powerful members in the group in order to "let off steam". They were in Sunnydale because Potentials were being hunted and stabbed to death all throughout the world. Which they all seemed to forget while out getting drunk.
I don't like how things happened with Spike but Buffy did get to vent as much, or rather as little, as she did to Faith. Neither was good enough.
"Ask me again why I could never love you."
"I stopped you. Something I should've done a long time ago."
"Don't even start by saying you're sorry."
"Then why the Hell are you here?"
"Everything about you is wrong."
"Skittish? That's not the word I would use to describe it. You tried to RAPE me."
"You thought you'd just come back and be with me? This is all you get. Now talk."
"That's what this is about, you're feeling sorry for yourself?"
"You think you have some insight into the world now that your soul is drenched in blood? You don't know me. You don't even know you."
"You really have a problem with that word, don't you?"
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thetopher
Almost all of this is complete and utter rubbish.
crazysoulless
Scooby
My above post was edited by the mods but I don't think it is "vulgar" to use the technical terms for what happened in Who Are You. That's the problem with how the writers and fandom think of the episode. People don't use the literal terms for what happened in the scene. They say Faith "slept" with Riley or "used" Buffy's body but when you use the literal description of the acts that transpired it sounds as big a deal and SEXUALLY violating as it was.
What Faith did was vulgar.
What Spike tried to do was vulgar.
The fact there are threads dedicated to the subject of sexual assault storylines and their ramifications but fans comment "eww" when reading literal descriptions of scenes that are hotly debated and literal descriptions are seen as vulgar while the scenes themselves are just "mistakes" a character made is an issue in itself.
What Faith did was vulgar.
What Spike tried to do was vulgar.
The fact there are threads dedicated to the subject of sexual assault storylines and their ramifications but fans comment "eww" when reading literal descriptions of scenes that are hotly debated and literal descriptions are seen as vulgar while the scenes themselves are just "mistakes" a character made is an issue in itself.
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This is a family friendly board. Being explicit is not needed to get your point across. And there's no reason to be extra triggering in an already triggering thread.
Mr Trick
Scooby
I disagree. Parker was a good looking guy and I don't see anyone forgiving him for his actions. I think its more to do with Spike being a complex character and this issue being complex. I think both sides in this thread have for the most part made good or bad arguments. I don't recall anyone in this thread give Spike a pass because of his looks.