Question Do You Love Buffy but Hate Joss?

AngeliKat

AngeliKat

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My answer? Yes. He's a faux-feminist who cheated on his wife and has a pretty poor track record of problematic female representation, despite the glory of Buffy. Thoughts.
 
I'd have to actually get to know Joss to develop any sort of strong feelings (like hate) regarding him. And assuming you mean literally hate (as opposed to a just a casual way of saying dislike or disapprove of), it takes a lot more than that for me to hate someone.
 
I don't hate Joss, but he did irritate me sometimes. Nowadays I'm mostly indifferent to him.

But I do still love Buffy & Angel (and the Avengers movies).
 
Married people cheat. My marriage vows will be, "I will love you until I don't and pretend to be hurt when you inevitably cheat on me."

I quite like Joss. Some times I flinch at his jokes, but mostly I find him likeable and often even inspiring. The guy can be a little high on his own success, but I guess that is almost unavoidable. There were some disconcerting implications in Kai's statements that go beyond cheating, but unless she can be more clear about what she is actually accusing him of, I don't know what to make of it.
 
AngeliKat said:
My answer? Yes. He's a faux-feminist who cheated on his wife and has a pretty poor track record of problematic female representation, despite the glory of Buffy. Thoughts.
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I agree with the bolded statement 100%, although I don't put much stock in the feminist philosophy in the first place. For someone who promoted feminism and progressivism to such an annoying level, cheating on your wife, with the women that you employ, is still a deeply hypocritical and douchey thing to do. I understand why someone like him would do what he did, but I don't condone it in any way. Everything about it is honestly quite gross.

I used to look up to Whedon as a sort of moral role model until this scandal, but now I've been forced to separate how I feel about the man and the art that he produces. He might be a douche in real life, but damn it he knows how to tell a good story. In my mind, he's truly a master of character growth and cast camaraderie. He's created so many things that are intrinsically tied to my core personality, ethics, worldview, and values. I'm not saying he's wholly responsible for shaping me as an adult, but I'd be lying if I said he wasn't a major factor.

And no, I don't think "he has a pretty poor track record of problematic female representation."
 
I'm meh on Whedon most of the time. And then there are times I just want to show him the middle finger.

I know people praise his talent which is why he has such an inflated ego but I think his talent is limited. He's an ok director, he's good with witty dialogue and he has good ideas for shows. But he's not suited to running a tv show unless he has a partner that makes up for his shortcomings. He's better off doing movies. He's got no interest in continuity (show or character), he will write OOC characters as long as he gets his cool moment/montage or whatever. He's horrible to any cast that will dare question his decisions or who interfere with his plans (like pregnancy) while favoring those who kiss his ass. He doesn't know the meaning of the word 'humble' because he's incapable of admitting mistakes. Instead he blames the viewers for simply not getting the brilliance that was on screen. Which is what happened after S6.

These things are only a few examples of why I was never a big fan of Joss the person or Joss the artist. But hating him? I can't hate the pathetic.
 
RomanticSoul said:
he will write OOC characters as long as he gets his cool moment/montage or whatever.
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Not to derail the conversation, but for example?

He doesn't know the meaning of the word 'humble' because he's incapable of admitting mistakes. Instead he blames the viewers for simply not getting the brilliance that was on screen. Which is what happened after S6.
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I agree with him on S6. 😳

I don't know if "blaming the viewers" is the answer, but there's no reason for him to "admit his mistakes" when he's just trying to create a good story. Just because some fans didn't like it, doesn't make it a "mistake."
 
I wonder why he has such a bad rep. What does the poor female representation refer to? His work with Marvel?

I am in no way an apologist for assholes, but cheating happens everyday. men do it, women do it. They are assholes for doing so. I do not approve of it. But if you have such a high standard for how your idols are supposed to act, then you'll find that everyone you admire in this world has done bad things. Now sexual assault is a whole other ballpark.
btw; who did he cheat with? someone from Buffy?
 
Vampire Willow said:
I wonder why he has such a bad rep. What does the poor female representation refer to? His work with Marvel?

I am in no way an apologist for assholes, but cheating happens everyday. men do it, women do it. They are assholes for doing so. I do not approve of it. But if you have such a high standard for how your idols are supposed to act, then you'll find that everyone you admire in this world has done bad things. Now sexual assault is a whole other ballpark.
btw; who did he cheat with? someone from Buffy?
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First of all, well said.
Secondly, I think, in his wife's letter, she said that he cheated with young actresses trying to get jobs. She never alluded to anything sexual-assault related, but she definitely said he used his position of power to get laid.
 
Vampire Willow said:
But if you have such a high standard for how your idols are supposed to act, then you'll find that everyone you admire in this world has done bad things.
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This trivializes the opinion that doesn't agree with yours by making an assumption about their "high standards" and suggests a naivité regarding their other idols.

As someone who dislikes Joss, it's not about the fact that he cheated, it is about how he has chosen to represent himself for years via Buffy and his other "strong female characters". He has milked the cash cow that is his Hollywood feminism and used his fame to make value judgements about other people. Then why shouldn't other people get to make value judgements about him? The fact that he cheated on his wife and used his power to get young actresses into the sack makes him a hypocrite to me. Doesn't mean I can't accept that people have flaws, it just means that for Joss Whedon this is one flaw that increases my dislike of him.
 
Taake said:
This trivializes the opinion that doesn't agree with yours by making an assumption about their "high standards" and suggests a naivité regarding their other idols.

As someone who dislikes Joss, it's not about the fact that he cheated, it is about how he has chosen to represent himself for years via Buffy and his other "strong female characters". He has milked the cash cow that is his Hollywood feminism and used his fame to make value judgements about other people. Then why shouldn't other people get to make value judgements about him? The fact that he cheated on his wife and used his power to get young actresses into the sack makes him a hypocrite to me. Doesn't mean I can't accept that people have flaws, it just means that for Joss Whedon this is one flaw that increases my dislike of him.
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you have every right to dislike him for what he did. Maybe i shouldn't have generalized it like that. Everyone has their own reasons. I just don't dislike him for it. He's not my hero or anything, I love Buffy and he wrote it. But as for his personal life, it's none of my business unless he does something horrible that I cannot excuse and actually affects the way I see his stuff (such as Woody Allen)
 
WillowFromBuffy said:
Married people cheat. My marriage vows will be, "I will love you until I don't and pretend to be hurt when you inevitably cheat on me."

I quite like Joss. Some times I flinch at his jokes, but mostly I find him likeable and often even inspiring. The guy can be a little high on his own success, but I guess that is almost unavoidable. There were some disconcerting implications in Kai's statements that go beyond cheating, but unless she can be more clear about what she is actually accusing him of, I don't know what to make of it.
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"Here's to me
And here's to you
And here's to love & laughter
I'll be true as long as you
Not a single moment after"
 
W
WillowFromBuffy
I was faithful until I saw you making eyes at the neighbour.
I think that before judging lives of people, I must judge myself. No one is perfect, everyone make mistake, so really who am I to judge someone while I have done bad things in my life me too ? I can have an opinion on him of course, it’s in my right ! Do not confond having an opinion on someone and judging that person, there is a line between. A line most of people don’t see
 
AngeliKat said:
My answer? Yes. He's a faux-feminist who cheated on his wife and has a pretty poor track record of problematic female representation, despite the glory of Buffy. Thoughts.
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I understand that the use of the word "hate" was uncalled for. And in terms of problematic female representation, I was not referring to BTVS but rather the Wonder Woman script, the controversy over Black Widow in The Avengers, etc. I too agree that he has been a formative figure in my life. So much so that I asked this question, because it is deeply challenging for me to grapple with who he is as a person. Thank you all for the great comments.
 
T
thrasherpix
I'm not sure the WW script thing was true, and I never heard a complaint of Black Widow's character by feminists that didn't sound utterly ridiculous to me.
Hate is a strong word. I prefer to say that I lost respect for him as a human, but I can't hate him because he never did anything to me personnaly.

I do love Buffy though and that's not even a strong enough word I think!
 
The Ferg said:
I agree with him on S6. 😳

I don't know if "blaming the viewers" is the answer, but there's no reason for him to "admit his mistakes" when he's just trying to create a good story. Just because some fans didn't like it, doesn't make it a "mistake."
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Ok badly worded on my end maybe. But Joss saying fans and critics who have issues with S6 'just don't get dark and adult' is insulting. Why not say that he understands S6 is not everyone's taste instead. He makes it sound as if there is something wrong with those people who don't like it. Like they are not smart or adult enough to get it. That's why I just can't like the guy.
 
The Ferg
The Ferg
Fair enough. Didn't know what he actually said.
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