Question Do You Love Buffy but Hate Joss?

I've watched his other shows and am just now getting around to watching Buffy and Angel. I have a lot of respect for him as a writer, a show runner and as a musician.

But when a person repeatedly cheats on his wife so he can have the best of both worlds (a committed relationship and the excitement of an affair) it's not fair to his wife whom he promised to be faithful to. Maybe that was why had a fascination with strong women or people in general and why his episodes tended to focus on people being pushed to the limit but still doing the right thing. The right thing to do would have been to divorce his wife but instead he hid his affairs. Living a lie is emotionally draining. That could be what pushed him to be a workaholic. Living in the fantasy of his stories was probably an escape from having to live a double life. It made him successful and happy but took a toll on his wife, so I can see how people call him a hypocrite when it comes to being a feminist.

I think it's possible to love what a person created but not like the person. I've had an affair and been cheated on so I know what it's like from both sides and would never go there again. I think he's having to experience the consequences of this now and hopefully, he'll learn something from it.
 
I enjoy Buffy. And I love Angel. Joss is annoying, but I don't hate him. Never met the guy. And it isn't my business who he's banging...in fact, it's nobody's business but his. Meh.
 
William Goldman, the writer of The Princess Bride, Marathon Man and his masterpiece, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, once said that stars are just like you or me with one exception: they can go for weeks without anyone disagreeing with them. By this standard, Joss believes he is a star. He is someone from a screenwriting family - both his father and his grandfather were television screenwriters and he is continuing in the same line with writing talent and a writing pedigree that are the envy of everyone else.

He had one concern with the stories he was used to: the trope of the little blonde girl who is chased by the monster and gets killed. He wanted to turn that on its head and he did in the first scene of the first episode where Darla and a boy break into the school. She appears nervous until she is certain there are no witnesses then vamps out and kills the boy. This is a great twist to the usual story and then he makes the realization: this could be construed as feminist. He continues the story with a little blonde girl as a vampire slayer who can claim, "I'm the thing monsters have nightmares about." This is definitely a feminist outlook, so he assigns himself the mantle of a feminist leader.

As for the casting couch, I doubt it happened with any of the actresses. Alyson and Alexis Denisof agreed to be godparents to his children after they got married. SMG recruited Michelle Trachtenberg, something she would not have done if she knew about anything dishonourable with regard to casting. His target, if in fact any of Kai's story is true, was probably someone not in the cast but possibly a location scout or a production scheduler or someone who would never be in a position to make any contact with the cast.

His own self-aggrandizement is seen where he makes statements like, "I personally invented something called a plot twist" when explaining that Spike always intended to get his soul when he went to Africa rather than going to get his chip out and getting duped by the demon he visited. This kind of explanation is what makes him a douchebag of the first order. I wouldn't say I hate him but I dislike a lot of what he has explained in that way.

His worst performance comes out when he has to deal with something that didn't go his way - Charisma Carpenter got pregnant and instead of writing around it, he subjected her character to the most degrading story line imaginable. To an extent, SMG got the same treatment with Season 6 being such a degradation that she "had to be convinced to climb down off the ledge" as one person put it and Season 7 being such a dog's breakfast that she didn't know who Buffy was any more. His tendency to cut off his nose to spite his face and sabotage his own project to punish people who don't do what he wants has made me love BtVS less in the last two seasons but rather than hate Joss, I just think we have seen his psychological makeup define his limitations.
 
Ethan Reigns said:
His own self-aggrandizement is seen where he makes statements like, "I personally invented something called a plot twist" when explaining that Spike always intended to get his soul when he went to Africa rather than going to get his chip out and getting duped by the demon he visited. This kind of explanation is what makes him a douchebag of the first order.
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This kind of explanations is what make me like him actually.
The way he says that stuff makes him sound like a guy who knows he gets credited to more than he deservs imho.
Since it obviously isn't true that he inventet the plot twist so has I always seen it as a funnier way to say that he has simple done something that a million writer before him has already done and that he has not done something new or original.
That makes him more humble than a douchebag from my view...

/SK
 
I like Joss and admire him creatively. I've heard only one side of the story re: the cheating issue, and it's none of my business anyway. There are no saintly celebrities except Mr. Rogers and the Dalai Lama.

I think the influence that his work has had on promoting both feminist and LGBT issues greatly outweighs any failings in his private life. It's possible to be a feminist without being Sir Galahad.
 
The problem with the thread question is I'm not sure if we are talking about Joss when it comes to the recent rumours about him or his work? Either way it has be covered in multiple threads. Just on his work yes he's overrated, but that's only because it's probably impossible to live up to the billing he's been given. I think he's one of the most inventive and distinct writers/directors of the last twenty years. I find his work consistent mostly.
 
RomanticSoul said:
Ok badly worded on my end maybe. But Joss saying fans and critics who have issues with S6 'just don't get dark and adult' is insulting. Why not say that he understands S6 is not everyone's taste instead. He makes it sound as if there is something wrong with those people who don't like it. Like they are not smart or adult enough to get it. That's why I just can't like the guy.
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Again, as far I know Noxon was the showrunner for S6 so I don't know why the issues people have with it are dropped at Whedon's door.
 
Nah...he can be a prat at times but his private life doesn't particularly interest me. I really don't care what directors or actors tell me - only what I glean from the text is important. Simone de Beauvoir lead an "interesting"*cough, cough* life (including accusations of debauching a minor) - try arguing she wasn't a feminist.
 
Mr Trick said:
Again, as far I know Noxon was the showrunner for S6 so I don't know why the issues people have with it are dropped at Whedon's door.
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How should I know? I wasn't any of the people who interviewed him. And as far as I'm aware Whedon still got send the scripts for S6 and went over them, so while his involvement was minimal he wasn't completely absent. And who knows how many of his ideas made it into S6 (besides the musical) that we aren't aware of. The balcony scene was after all his own deranged fantasy that he's had in his head for years before it went on screen. And we can gladly talk about what that says about Whedon and his wish for one of his beta male stand ins to degrade the alpha female while shaming her at the same time.
 
been away for awhile, came back largely to explore this topic. buffy, in particular, is such a HUGE part of my life. it's extremely important to me, and speaks to me on many levels about many things. i don't think i can ever put it down, and that love has definitely made me hesitate to delve too deeply into joss whedon's actual real life. a lot of that has to do with fear: i don't want to know because it will make it harder for me to enjoy buffy. it's no secret that hollywood is just scum. crass, money-obsessed, sexist, predatory monsters, but i always believed--or at least wanted to--that some of my favorites were free of clay feet. no dice, i guess.

obviously, if you like movies, teevee, and music (or anything), you're going to encounter problematic people. yes, it's perfectly legal or whatever tohave affairs, but it reveals a decided lack of respect for women, which is antithetical to most of his work, particularly buffy, which is all about the empowerment of women, and it does so very smartly, very meaningfully. to position yourself as an actual feminist and then to proceed to gaslight your spouse and carry on a bunch of affairs is just crushing, because it calls into question the whole of his work, and certainly the content of his words. but it also makes him the worst kind of fraud, because it preys upon and takes advantage of good will. it also suggests that, despite his claims of feminism and female empowerment, that he's actually quite the opposite, that joss whedon is a misogynist with no actual respect for women, who uses them for whatever it is that he wants. now, i don't know joss whedon, nor do i have any firsthand information about any of this, but as i found myself sort of saying "i mean, what do we actually know?" i started to realize that i was deluding myself because, essentially, i didn't want to stop loving a show. not good enough.

so where does that leave me? where does that leave us? so much of buffy's strength comes from sarah, marti, jane, the rest of the cast, that i think i can continue to mostly enjoy buffy without too much regret, but i am extremely dissapointed in joss whedon for selling us a false bill of goods, manipulating us based on very important beliefs, and simply not being the person he was telling us over and over, which is a bummer. i wanted to believe in whedon, wanted him to be the outlier in a business that has been mistreating women since the very beginning, wanted buffy to be the radical reflection of someone who was truly woke, an empowering mythology for future generations. this whole thing just makes me extremely sad.
 
Mr Trick
Mr Trick
Again apart from Joss having an affair no one can say for sure how much of the other stuff is true. I'm not a fan of trial by media. What he did in his personal life doesn't change how good or bad he is as a writer.
no, but it sounds like we can certainly say the affair is true, and his gross treatment of charisma carpenter seems to be true as well. these things alone are enough, but they beg the question: what else is there that we don't know? and there's certainly a fair amount of additional, less-proven info out there. an while the affair stuff is from his personal life, the charisma carpenter stuff is not. and i start to find it hard to believe that a serial cheater who has some power in hollywood wouldn't start to abuse some of that power. it's not just his personal life that is affected by his actions.

and it's not that it changes whether or not he's a good writer. it's that it changes whether he's a feminist or not, which takes away from the authenticity, validity, and weight of his work. it means that he learned that he could exploit feminism for his own aggrandizement.

i guess, also, what i'm getting at, is that this just bothers me a lot. i'm trying to reconcile the emergence of these facts with art that has deep, deep meaning to me, that has been influential.
 
nancylives said:
no, but it sounds like we can certainly say the affair is true, and his gross treatment of charisma carpenter seems to be true as well. these things alone are enough, but they beg the question: what else is there that we don't know? and there's certainly a fair amount of additional, less-proven info out there. an while the affair stuff is from his personal life, the charisma carpenter stuff is not. and i start to find it hard to believe that a serial cheater who has some power in hollywood wouldn't start to abuse some of that power. it's not just his personal life that is affected by his actions.

and it's not that it changes whether or not he's a good writer. it's that it changes whether he's a feminist or not, which takes away from the authenticity, validity, and weight of his work. it means that he learned that he could exploit feminism for his own aggrandizement.

i guess, also, what i'm getting at, is that this just bothers me a lot. i'm trying to reconcile the emergence of these facts with art that has deep, deep meaning to me, that has been influential.
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But you can still be a good writer of female characters but not necessarily a feminist. I think Joss is a good writer of characters in general and has done a lot for the progress of female characters on TV. That doesn't mean he's a feminist or even that he's a nice human being. None of us really know him. That's why its best to just judge his work.

The Charisma thing doesn't make him sexist IMO. They clearly had a falling out. He didn't treat her badly because she's a woman. Her gender had nothing to do with it.
 
Mr Trick said:
The Charisma thing doesn't make him sexist IMO. They clearly had a falling out. He didn't treat her badly because she's a woman. Her gender had nothing to do with it.
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He treated her badly because she got pregnant. How is that not a gendered thing?
 
Mylie said:
He treated her badly because she got pregnant. How is that not a gendered thing?
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I don't think its as clear cut as because she got pregnant that's murky. I'm not even defending his actions. It sounds like he acted very badly. All I'm saying is IMO I don't think he did it because she's a woman.
 
I've long wondered what the standard industry practices are for pregnancy. Many young women work on the same show for years on years on years. There must be some guideline or norm for handling that sort of thing.
 
What exactly did Joss do again that was misogynistic? That abuses women? What did I miss? Actual proven legitimate things? Because cheating on your spouse just makes you an asshole, it doesn’t make you an abuser or misogynistic. We don’t know exactly what happened between Charisma and Joss. Was it mature that he had a hissy fit that her pregnancy ruined the storyline he wanted to do? No. But I also haven’t heard her badmouthing him either. Any women he slept with did so consensually, this wasn’t a case of him abusing any power. And also, women aren’t always innocent lambs who are consistently preyed upon by evil deviant men who are constantly looking to exploit them. I’m getting really sick of this narrative that all of sudden if a man looks at you the wrong way grab your pearls he’s a rapist attitude. There are plenty of women who are attracted to powerful , smart men who would have been happy to sleep with Joss Whedon regardless if he was married or not. Do they not have any responsibility? Do you think they didn’t have any clue who he was? Do you think he told them he was ted jones who worked at the laundromat?

He’s a good writer. Thanks to him we have great shows and he’s responsible for a fandom that has lasted over 20 years. It makes me sick that people want to have reboot of show he created but don’t want his involvement because he’s “ problematic “ in this new “ metoo” environment. Than take a walk and get a new idea and don’t piggyback off of someone else . He’s absolutely still a feminist because you know what? Women are assholes too. They cheat on their spouses. They make bad choices. Women in power do a lot of shady shit. It doesn’t change all the doors he opened and the all great characters he wrote. Come at him when he starts grabbing women by the pussy or advocating for Harvey Weinstein or has sex with a 17 year old or punches his wife or does something that ACTUALLY worth all this pearl clutching .
 
GraceK said:
What exactly did Joss do again that was misogynistic? That abuses women? What did I miss? Actual proven legitimate things? Because cheating on your spouse just makes you an asshole, it doesn’t make you an abuser or misogynistic. We don’t know exactly what happened between Charisma and Joss. Was it mature that he had a hissy fit that her pregnancy ruined the storyline he wanted to do? No. But I also haven’t heard her badmouthing him either. Any women he slept with did so consensually, this wasn’t a case of him abusing any power. And also, women aren’t always innocent lambs who are consistently preyed upon by evil deviant men who are constantly looking to exploit them. I’m getting really sick of this narrative that all of sudden if a man looks at you the wrong way grab your pearls he’s a rapist attitude. There are plenty of women who are attracted to powerful , smart men who would have been happy to sleep with Joss Whedon regardless if he was married or not. Do they not have any responsibility? Do you think they didn’t have any clue who he was? Do you think he told them he was ted jones who worked at the laundromat?

He’s a good writer. Thanks to him we have great shows and he’s responsible for a fandom that has lasted over 20 years. It makes me sick that people want to have reboot of show he created but don’t want his involvement because he’s “ problematic “ in this new “ metoo” environment. Than take a walk and get a new idea and don’t piggyback off of someone else . He’s absolutely still a feminist because you know what? Women are assholes too. They cheat on their spouses. They make bad choices. Women in power do a lot of shady shit. It doesn’t change all the doors he opened and the all great characters he wrote. Come at him when he starts grabbing women by the pussy or advocating for Harvey Weinstein or has sex with a 17 year old or punches his wife or does something that ACTUALLY worth all this pearl clutching .
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It also makes him a human being. Human beings make mistakes. Was Clinton a bad President because he cheated? No. Great post by the way.
 
GraceK
GraceK
Thanks I kinda got a little ranty 😂
GraceK said:
But I also haven’t heard her badmouthing him either.
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In the interview "Don't Mess with Charisma Carpenter, she talks about how they fell out during S4 but reconciled in S5, even though he lied to her about not killing her off.
Mr Trick said:
Was Clinton a bad President because he cheated?
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No, but he should have been thrown in jail for what he did to Lewinsky in order to try to cover it up.
 
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