Question If you ship B/A, how important is the Shanshu to you?

[Grace]

This question was inspired by a comment @Mylie made in the "How Do You Ship" thread. I'm curious what other B/A shippers think about the future for Buffy and Angel, and whether him being human is important. I would like to know what your *preferred* option is -- it doesn't mean that you would necessarily reject Buffy and Angel getting together again in other circumstances. Just which would make you happiest.

 

[brinkster130]

I voted for all are equal. For me, the idea of Shanshu isn’t something that I put much hope in. We’ve learned time and time again that prophecies aren’t what they seem, that there are always unintended side effects, loopholes everywhere etc. So I have trouble imagining that the Shanshu would simply turn Angel human and have no other surprises attached.

As far as the future, I never pictured Buffy having a long life. Sad, I know, but slayers just don’t live long; and the fact that she’s survived as long as she has is unique to her. I always pictured them continuing to fight the mission together, and in a healthy, happy, relationship until she met her untimely death.

 

[BuffyBot22]

I also voted for all are equal, because I would personally be happy with any B/A ending up together scenario. However the best one is probably human Angel with superpowers and here is why:

I would love to see a fully human Angel with Buffy so she could have that normalcy she wanted. I just see this ending sadly for Angel because he won't have any superpowers to help Buffy fight and will feel responsible when she dies (This is inevitable for slayer, she will die before her time). I see him honing a lot of guilt because he was unable to protect her. We see him give his human mortality up in IWRY in order to protect Buffy because in his human state he was too weak to save her.

Vampire Angel with the happiness clause removed would eliminate a huge a problem in their relationship. At least they could make love, fight side by side, and have a healthy and mature relationship. It just wouldn't give Buffy the normalcy she wants (but, I'm just not so sure what normalcy would actually work for Buffy since she herself is not normal)

Human Angel with superpowers would prob be your best bet. This way there is some normalcy, they can sleep together, fight together, and Angel doesn't have to worry about not being able to protect her

Btw I find it silly, sweet, and endearing all in one that Angel feels the need/wants to protect Buffy when she is clearly stronger than him in any state lol. But, he knows it always helps to have someone having your back in a fight. The fact that Angel and Buffy have each other and their friends has definitely saved them many times where other slayers and vampires most likely would have ended up dead.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I voted for a human Angel who retained his superpowers. A fully human Angel would be a test of Spike's statement that "she needs a little monster in her man". Spike may have been right. As for prophecy, my favourite was in Macbeth where he is told that he would be safe "'til Burnham Wood doth come to Dunsinane". Well, wouldn't you know it, his enemies cut branches from Burnham Wood as camouflage and came to Dunsinane where Macbeth was. He did not survive that encounter. Shanshu may hold similar pitfalls. Angel would be able to fight day or night and have a healthy relationship without the possibility of reverting to Angelus. Vampire Angel would still have daylight as a mortal hazard. His life with Buffy would literally be in the shadows.

 

[Bop]

I voted for Vampire Angel without the happiness clause and I'm quite shocked that it's not more popular! I think that if we dissect Angel too much then the character who does end up with Buffy will hardly be Angel anymore. Being a vampire is a big part of who Angel is, and he's made it into something positive. Also, I like that Angel being a vampire will bring issues into Bangel, it would make things interesting without being harmful.

 

[Taaroko]

I like the idea of fixing the happiness clause, but I consider that to be a temporary solution. Ultimately, I want the Shanshu for Angel, and I don't want it to be a cop-out where he gets to keep some of his powers, because that's cheating. I feel like there being thousands of Slayers is kind of Buffy's equivalent of the Shanshu—the weight of the entire world is no longer on her shoulders, so she can pursue her own happiness more and it wouldn't be shirking her duties to make beautiful babies with human Angel. I've said this in another thread, but my ideal future for them is running a mixed martial arts gym together and raising kids while continuing to fight the good fight behind the scenes.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

I think the Shanshu is the Bangel happily ever after, therefore Angel isn't going to get it until then end of the entire comic series where he and Buffy finally get to be together. Of course I wouldn't put it past Joss to have Angel achieve the Shanshu just one day before Buffy dies of old age. Bangel would get to spend one perfect day together before Buffy passes away in her sleep because ultimately that is Buffy's happy ending. She dies not on the battlefield but peacefully in her sleep. There might be a hopespot at the end where Angel lives out his life (or dies fighting the good fight) and is reunited with a young Buffy in heaven. But we all know how Romeo and Juliet ended(which Bangel have been likened to) so death might be in store for Bangel because there is no way to keep them apart forever.

 

[BibliophileAnn]

I voted for a fully human Angel. That is in my opinion the only way that Buffy and Angel can be truly together, children, and a home. The full life Buffy and Angel always wanted. After all the sacrificing they have both done it would be nice for them to have that and be happy.
 

I voted for all are equal. For me, the idea of Shanshu isn’t something that I put much hope in. We’ve learned time and time again that prophecies aren’t what they seem, that there are always unintended side effects, loopholes everywhere etc. So I have trouble imagining that the Shanshu would simply turn Angel human and have no other surprises attached.

As far as the future, I never pictured Buffy having a long life. Sad, I know, but slayers just don’t live long; and the fact that she’s survived as long as she has is unique to her. I always pictured them continuing to fight the mission together, and in a healthy, happy, relationship until she met her untimely death.

I hope you are wrong about the Shanshu. If it does turn out to be the way you think then it was somebody's idea of a big joke and only used to give Angel and Bangels false hope. We will just have to see.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I saw this earlier this morning and I found that I was very conflicted in how to vote! I had a busy day today so I figured I would think on it and I found that at the end of the day I'm still conflicted. I ended up voting that "they are all equal to me" because I think at the end of the day I think that Buffy loves Angel and vise versa regardless of the human/vampire condition and that if they were truly invested in making it work they could make it work either way. But here were my conflicted thoughts on the matter.

On the one hand, the one of the main reasons I ship B/A is because they are two heros, who have the burdens of fighting for good on a daily basis and I think that they have that in common. I don't see that Buffy is ready to retire/settle down with a husband and 2.5 kids any time soon. In fact, while I'm not 100% caught up in the comics, nothing I have seen from the show or what I have read from the comics indicate that she wants kids at this time. I sympathize with that, I'm 33 yrs old and married and still not sure if kids are what I want. The typical nuclear family is not for everyone and maybe Buffy is just plain not interested in that. At this time, she is choosing to continue to slay. In that scenario, Angel the Vampire is a better suited partner. And to some extent this is really my version of a Bangel happy ending, Buffy and Angel fighting evil together, sharing their burdens, stopping apocolypses/solving cases as a team (see late Season 3). And so yes, for this happy ending to become a reality a few things would have to happen. Either fix the curse (I mean seriously Willow is one of the most powerful sorcerer out there and she hasn't done this?), they come to realization curse not an issue (perfect happiness not possible due to how rare), or Angel becomes human but retains abilities BUT this just seems like almost too perfect.

On the other hand, a small part of me wonders, does Buffy still want a normal life? Would she even know what to do with a normal life if she got one? If I could buy the fact that a normal life was possible and that she wanted it then of course I would want Angel to be part of that normal life. That would mean human Angel but I think Angel would find being human with no powers very difficult. Essentially for regular human Angel to work with Buffy I think they would both have to be in a position where they had decided to hang up their capes. I think I can imagine Buffy maybe getting there one day but I'm not sure if I can imagine Angel getting there. But maybe if he got his shanshu he would feel redeemed and feel like he could finally learn to be happy, be rid of his guilt etc.

Ultimately, I think the shanshu/human stuff has always meant more to Angel than Buffy. I think she would be perfectly happy with Vampire Angel after all at this point in her life she has spent more time in relationships with Vampires than with humans.

 

[Kairos]

I think as a fan, Vamp!Angel minus the soul danger would make me happiest, because I enjoy the angst and that way they get to keep some.

But I voted for normal human Angel, because as a ride-off-into-the-sunset ending, that would make them happiest.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Do any fateful comic book readers know if Shanshu is still in play? Didn't Angel sign it away ? Have they talked about it?

 

[Grace]

@dcai0830 I think it came up in Angel & Faith S9 (and I'm pretty sure in After the Fall, too, though I haven't read that yet). I don't think Angel is putting much stock in it, but I don't think it's completely off the table.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

If you look at the scene where Angel signs the document relinquishing his right to be the subject of the Shanshu prophecy, he signs his name "Anger" rather than "Angel". Without a correct signature, he has not legally signed it away and he kills everyone in Black Thorn, so there are no witnesses remaining alive.

 

[Taaroko]

I've always interpreted that as a bluff by the Black Thorn. Why on earth would signing the original prophecy relinquish his claim to it? It's not a check that can be cashed by anyone once the recipient signs it. I'd be more inclined to believe it was legit if they'd given him an actual contract to sign.

 

[EarthLogic]

In ATF Wesley says that the signed document was never filed and therefore it's still valid. But then he passes on a vision to Angel showing that his role in the apocalypse in order to get the Shanshu would be on the side of evil. So it's about as clear as mud really.

I've always interpreted that as a bluff by the Black Thorn. Why on earth would signing the original prophecy relinquish his claim to it? It's not a check that can be cashed by anyone once the recipient signs it. I'd be more inclined to believe it was legit if they'd given him an actual contract to sign.

Yeah I didn't understand that either. If anything, it would rather secure it as his. After all writing your name on something is usually an act of ownership over that thing (not that I think that would have been valid either).

Besides you can't sign away a prophecy! The whole point is that whatever it speaks of is certain to come about, just usually not in the way that people interpret. It would be like Harry Potter trying to sign away his prophecy to Neville - 'here Neville, you can go vanquish Voldemort now' - yeah, not how it works. The way events played out made sure it was always going to be him.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I've always interpreted that as a bluff by the Black Thorn. Why on earth would signing the original prophecy relinquish his claim to it? It's not a check that can be cashed by anyone once the recipient signs it. I'd be more inclined to believe it was legit if they'd given him an actual contract to sign.

Intent is key when entering a contract or signing something away. You can for example sign away a title or promissory note so if the prophecy is seen as a type of obligation owed to him I could see the signing away or endorsing being legit.

But this is obviously TV and the non-lawyer in me prefers your theory that it was all bluffing. 🙂

 

[EarthLogic]

Intent is key when entering a contract or signing something away. You can for example sign away a title or promissory note so if the prophecy is seen as a type of obligation owed to him I could see the signing away or endorsing being legit.

Except that it's not. Prophecies don't take take sides; they're neutral proclamations made tens/hundreds/thousands of years ago about something that shall inevitably come to pass. So it's not really something owed to him so much as something that just happens to benefit him.

But it makes more sense that it was a bluff: a test of his commitment to the Black Thorn. What I don't get is what W&H's long game is. Obviously they want Angel on their side when it comes to the apocalyptic battle, but if he's due to turn human after that then what further use would he be? Also, would they really want to engineer a world-destroying apocalypse - I thought they enjoyed slowly facilitating the spread of evil in a world that keeps turning, as Holland Manners explained?

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Except that it's not. Prophecies don't take take sides; they're neutral proclamations made tens/hundreds/thousands of years ago about something that shall inevitably come to pass. So it's not really something owed to him so much as something that just happens to benefit him.

But isn't it supposed to be his "reward" I mean didn't this prophecy come about to reward him for his fealty to the battle for good? If it is a reward granted by the Powers it could probably be signed away. I think if we start looking too seriously into this its going to get muddier and muddier because the writers probably didn't really think it through all that much.

How did Angel become Human in ATF? That wasn't shanshu? I've only read vol. 1 of ATF so I'm not 100% clued in yet. Don't mind spoilers.

 

[EarthLogic]

But isn't it supposed to be his "reward" I mean didn't this prophecy come about to reward him for his fealty to the battle for good? If it is a reward granted by the Powers it could probably be signed away. I think if we start looking too seriously into this its going to get muddier and muddier because the writers probably didn't really think it through all that much.

How did Angel become Human in ATF? That wasn't shanshu? I've only read vol. 1 of ATF so I'm not 100% clued in yet. Don't mind spoilers.

It's a reward for playing a pivotal role in the battle and for surviving all the big nasties, it doesn't specifically state which side he'll be on.
This makes the Powers thing a bit iffy (and yes, probably the writers didn't think it through) because it doesn't say who/what will grant his humanity. The PTBs supposedly have the ability to make Angel human and since they are usually aligned with the side of good then I guess if they granted it it would be as a reward for being on their side. This is what the gang assume for a long time since they're being guided by the visions. But then if he fights for evil...?

In After the Fall the Senior Partners made him human after they sent L.A. to hell in order to weaken him when he needed his vampire abilities the most. So I guess they have the ability to do that too, but it was established that it wasn't the Shanshu, just another round of the Screw With Angel game.

 

[EarthLogic]

Oh and @dcai0830 if you've read the first Volume, it's explained in issue #4.