Why the huge Spike hate?

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In the heat of battle I doubt that was the foremost thing on Spikes mind myself.

But then Spike was newly souled and I imagine very much a work in progress so to speak. 🙂
 
The difference is when Angel gets attacked by vampire hunters he doesn't tend to gloat and piss all over their pain.
Justine and all those other vampires tried to kill Angel and, even with his son missing, he doesn't cross any lines- he just beats them up and lets them go.
And Holtz? The guy took his son, turned him into the enemy who tries to kill him and Angel still feels the need to apologise to the old bastard.

Angel's view of redemption is one of the things I love about him and ironically it also leads to his biggest moral failings.
 
In the heat of battle I doubt that was the foremost thing on Spikes mind myself.
That was never on Spikes mind period. Heat of the battle or not. That's one of the many reasons he and Angel were diametrically opposite. If Spike had couth or compassion then it really wouldn't be Spike. Thats part of the problem when you write someone to be a cool disposable villain and then make them a regular character.
 
I think we went beyond rude when Spike told Wood his mother never loved him because she didn't quit being a Slayer (because that's totally how Slayers work), and then bit him after he had already beaten him. And then continued to wear the murder trophy he got from her in Wood's presence. Spike had a right to defend himself, but that's just being a dick.

But, as I pointed out, that was AFTER Wood had tried to kill him, which is, in itself, far more offensive to my way of thinking, that anything that Spike could possibly do afterward. Yes, Spike had the right to defend himself. It could even be argued that he had the duty to do so, since he was the strongest fighter on Buffy's team, and she had specifically told him that she was "not ready for him to not be there." And, if you see anything that Spike did as offensive, how much more so is Buffy later, when she tells Wood that, if he tries anything like that again, she will let Spike kill him?
 
Silverspike
Silverspike
Exactly. It wasn't a one way street at this point.
That was never on Spikes mind period. Heat of the battle or not. That's one of the many reasons he and Angel were diametrically opposite. If Spike had couth or compassion then it really wouldn't be Spike. Thats part of the problem when you write someone to be a cool disposable villain and then make them a regular character.
Also with the comic relief type villains it's sometimes hard to understand their actual bad deeds because of all "they are so funny and cool" stuff.
 
Also with the comic relief type villains it's sometimes hard to understand their actual bad deeds because of all "they are so funny and cool" stuff.
But Spike wasn't 'funny' until they decided, as per Joss Whedon, to use him to replace Cordy.
 
But Spike wasn't 'funny' until they decided, as per Joss Whedon, to use him to replace Cordy.
Come on, he was funny long before 4 season. How about his speech "they don't have rock that big"? Or his drunk and miserable state in season 3 when he "hilariously" attacks Willow?
 
I think he means that Spike was brought on as 'truth-teller' to replace Cordy. Somebody to deliver tactless/funny lines to the rest of the gang. But then they decided to bring back Anya, so that spot got taken.

Before S4 Spike wasn't the 'funny' guy, he was just a character who happened to have some real gem lines (and great comic timing by JM) as a bad guy. Pretty much all the main characters (and even some of the bad guys) get a good share of witty one-liners, at least in those early seasons.
 
Also with the comic relief type villains it's sometimes hard to understand their actual bad deeds because of all "they are so funny and cool" stuff.

I think this was a problem myself. Spike's evil deeds were typically depicted as nearly comedic rather than vicious. Even the killing of the slayers in FFL contained a touch of romanticism because it's told from his POV. This versus Angelus who killed some fish and you'd think he paved Revello with baby carcasses.
 
Of course. I wasn't trying to downplay Jenny, but comment on the serious nature the fish-killing was treated with. Spike kills the teacher in SH, there's a joking nature about it. The shopkeeper in S3 is kinda brushed off "You're work?" His evilness always had a rather absurd quality to it. I think this came back to bite the writers later, but they were walking a fine line there.
 
I'm always amazed when people bring this sort of thing up as BTVS always had a large slice of humor running through it right from the start. I mean look at Anya? The Trio, etc, etc. But you can tell with how certain scenes are set up that some things are meant to be taken more lightly then others, so I've never had a problem with that myself.
 
I mean look at Anya? The Trio, etc, etc.
Do I have to? If I ignore them the show is much better. But there is a difference between laughing at a character and their actions, than laughing WITH them. I just think in the 4th and 5th season you were laughing with Spike too much. He became the comic relief versus quipper.
 
But I never minded that. Humor was a huge part of his character right from the off.
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
Yes, humor was.. but it was just a different type. Like his Pangs humor. I loathe that episode for that. I hate the 'bear line'... I cringe everytime I hear it. But it's just personal opinion.
But there is a difference between laughing at a character and their actions, than laughing WITH them. I just think in the 4th and 5th season you were laughing with Spike too much. He became the comic relief versus quipper.

Don't you mean laughing at? I mean a lot of S4 is Spike being the butt of a lot of jokes because he's neutered and a little pathetic. I actually really like that in a character- some bathos to puncture them whenever they get 'too cool'. Having them fall on their face occassionally makes them seem more 'human', even those used-to-be Big Bads.
You've got to be careful not to overdo it though and make a character too comic that you can't take them anywhere dramatically- I always think Hamony, Anya and Andrew are like that, shallow comic creations with not much else interesting to explore.
 
Spike is interesting to me, and it's because he exists in the gray area between good and evil, noble and ignoble, etc. He gets me asking questions. A thread like this would never happen for Oz or Tara, and IMO there is far less to gain from trying to understand them because they are much more straightforward and good. They are not challenging to me in the sense that they don't inspire any reevaluation of myself or people in general.

Nietzsche- "In heaven, all the interesting people are missing."

You can learn a lot about the way people are from instructive examples like Spike, but IMO a thread like this is best used afterwards when your attitude and opinion of Spike is turned back towards yourself. I think that is the final point of interesting characters, if the point is to learn something from the experience.

I like Spike. I don't like Spike. There are reasons to feel both ways. What does that say about myself? What does that say about my own personal code of conduct or ethical positions? Where do I (honestly) stand in relation to what this other person or character is, do I exhibit some of the same qualities in disguised form? Is my dislike of that character hypocritical in some way difficult to understand? If that is the case, is my dislike of the character a form of blindness about myself, or even a form of self-loathing? These are possible examples of productive questions to ask yourself, especially if you have a strong reaction about someone or some character.

Most people decide whether they like someone or not and stop there. They fail to ask themselves the hard introspective questions afterwards and miss a chance to learn more about themselves or the way people work.
 
Don't you mean laughing at?
No, I mean laughing with. Like what I told @Silverspike "Yes, humor was.. but it was just a different type. Like his Pangs humor. I loathe that episode for that. I hate the 'bear line'... I cringe everytime I hear it. But it's just personal opinion."

The 'bear line' in my opinion is certainly an example of something you are supposed to laugh with.
 
I'm always amazed when people bring this sort of thing up as BTVS always had a large slice of humor running through it right from the start. I mean look at Anya? The Trio, etc, etc. But you can tell with how certain scenes are set up that some things are meant to be taken more lightly then others, so I've never had a problem with that myself.

I agree, but those characters suffer similar problems. We don't take their deeds all that seriously. This wouldn't have been a problem with Spike, per se, until they later (S6) wanted us to take them seriously.
 
No, I mean laughing with. Like what I told @@Silverspike "Yes, humor was.. but it was just a different type. Like his Pangs humor. I loathe that episode for that. I hate the 'bear line'... I cringe everytime I hear it. But it's just personal opinion."
The 'bear line' in my opinion is certainly an example of something you are supposed to laugh with.

Right. Gotcha. I guess I can understand that even if I don't share it. 🙂
 
For instance, and in my opinion, this is good Spike (and sorry, I HATE when people just post dialog.. it drives me nuts, but its the best way to illustrate the differences as I see them)
This to me is GOOD Spike:

Spike: Come on. I-I'm parboiling out here.
Buffy: [Giles hands Buffy a stake] Want me to make it quicker?
Spike: [pitifully] Invite me in!
Buffy: No.
Giles: Fairly unlikely.
Spike: [Spike tries running in and is knocked back] Oh, damn it! Look, I'm safe. I can't bite anyone. Willow, tell 'em what I did.
Willow: Y-You said you were gonna kill me, then Buffy.
Spike: Yes, bad, but let's skip that part and get to the part where I couldn't bite you.
Willow: It's true. He had trouble performing.

This to me is BAD Spike:
Spike: A bear! You made a bear!
Buffy: I didn't mean to.
Spike: Undo it! Undo it!

One is laughing at, and the only is with. The dialog written purely as a joke is what I dont like.
 
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