Why wasn't AtS picked up again after cancellation?

[EarthLogic]

I know that the show got cancelled because Joss miscalculated and pushed for an early renewal and so Jordan Levin panicked and axed it instead, but given the popularity and critical acclaim of the show, why didn't all the fan campaigns ultimately have any effect? Even the WB later fired Levin and admitted they'd made a mistake, so surely there was still anough momentum and enthusiasm among staff and fans alike for a comeback?

 

[Athena]

I'm confident if Angel were cancelled now it would have returned.

It's only really through the likes of Twitter & Facebook that fans can be seen to be pushing for cancellation reversals, and back in 2004 there wasn't any sort of way of fans to be able to collectively petition TV studios to bring back shows like Angel.

Sue, you could write a strongly worded email or letter of complaint, but there was no way those could be actively seen in the media, or collated in numbers. Nowadays with #bringbackinsertnameofshowhere, a strong collective voice can be seen by tv studios and executives, or other networks. The chance of your rival picking up a show and making money off it it too much of a risk for some studios.

I think a lot of this can be attributed to Netflix & Hulu, who will save ailing TV shows and run with them along with producing their own shows.

 

[Mylie]

I think the networks were still too enslaved by the Nielsen ratings system back then.

It's only with streaming sites that networks are starting to understand that it's not representative. Or they did understand it, it's just that it was the only way available to measure the popularity back then? I don't know.

One of the first instances of a show being cancelled by a network and then saved by a streaming site was Community and this is what the creator said later on :

On April 1, 2015, three weeks into the sixth season's run, Harmon detailed the series viewership on Yahoo! Screen. Exclaiming "Everybody in the world watches Community, now we know, now that we're not being measured by Nielsen [ . . . ] Surprise surprise you know, Yahoo knows how to count the clicks, and guess what? Holy shit! Jesus christ! Like you always knew!" Harmon stated he couldn't give specific numbers, saying "They have data, I'm not really asking, and they're not telling, but you know lips were loose at the drunken wrap party, enough for me to go 'holy shit. That's what I always would've guessed, times two or three'. I always knew there was like way more people watching this shit than what ever that .9 represented." (from Wikipedia)

That said, the networks and medias did know that AtS was popular, the fans did everything they could to save it with a big campaign (sending letters, adds, etc.) but the networks were just not interesting to give it a shot.

I think social medias definitely helped change that and as @Athena said streaming sites. It makes sense that they'd be interested in saving/reviving cancelled shows because it brings them publicity and an audience that already loves those shows.

 

[EarthLogic]

I'm confident if Angel were cancelled now it would have returned.

It's only really through the likes of Twitter & Facebook that fans can be seen to be pushing for cancellation reversals, and back in 2004 there wasn't any sort of way of fans to be able to collectively petition TV studios to bring back shows like Angel.

Sue, you could write a strongly worded email or letter of complaint, but there was no way those could be actively seen in the media, or collated in numbers. Nowadays with #bringbackinsertnameofshowhere, a strong collective voice can be seen by tv studios and executives, or other networks. The chance of your rival picking up a show and making money off it it too much of a risk for some studios.

I think a lot of this can be attributed to Netflix & Hulu, who will save ailing TV shows and run with them along with producing their own shows.

Absolutely there's a much better chance nowadays with social media and platforms like Netflix but even back in 2004, from what I've read, the campaigning went far beyond writing letters and emails: there were petitions, blood drives, food drives, billboards, ads in papers/magazines and rallies. It was terrible publicity for the WB, who even admitted they had made the wrong decision so I don't get why they couldn't do a u-turn on it once they'd come to the realisation. Had the cast and crew just moved on?

 

[Mylie]

Absolutely there's a much better chance nowadays with social media and platforms like Netflix but even back in 2004, from what I've read, the campaigning went far beyond writing letters and emails: there were petitions, blood drives, food drives, billboards, ads in papers/magazines and rallies. It was terrible publicity for the WB, who even admitted they had made the wrong decision so I don't get why they couldn't do a u-turn on it once they'd come to the realisation. Had the cast and crew just moved on?

Another possible reason... I remember when CW cancelled Veronica Mars, they refuse to sell the rights to the show so Rob Thomas could continue it another way. It took a long time before a movie was made possible just because Warner Bros didn't want to greenlit any project and also didn't want to let someone else do it. It took more than 5 years for Rob Thomas to convince the studios and that only happened through a kickstarter project. He had to prove that there were interest for a movie and it was financed by the fans. I really wish kickstarter was a thing back when AtS was cancelled.

I think that's what happens sometimes. Other networks are interested but the studio doesn't want to give up the rights. Maybe another network did show interest but the studios just wouldn't sell it to them.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Why wasn't Angel picked up after it was canceled? Burnt bridges. After the showrunner made an ultimatum to the network and tried to hold them over a barrel why would the network trust that he would not do it again? How could you really go on with that show after such a pissing contest. Couple that with the fact that the final episode was scorched earth and so much of what made the series tick was gone it seems reasonable that they wouldn't pick the show back up. Maybe if Whedon was not involved, or it did not end on such bad terms between he and the execs they may have allowed leeway.

 

[MarieVampSlayer]

It would probably be pick-up today by some other network for sure. And they would be shared universe with Buffy and spin-offs and movies maybe. With the fanbase that the Buffyverse has they would totally milk that cow and do tons of Buffyverse projects. Now that could either be a good or a bad things depending on the quality of the projects.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

The answer in a word? Joss.

He had disagreements with various people like Charisma Carpenter, Sarah Michelle Gellar and a few others so he trashed their characters in the show. This is why SMG did not sign up for an eighth season. This is why Cordelia became a saintly character then a villain. There were also people who idolized him such as James Marsters. This is why his part was expanded to the detriment of Season 7. Every choice Joss made was based on how he felt the actors related to him personally and all of these choices were detrimental to the show. Then he tried to strong-arm a renewal of Angel and he found that even though it would have been beneficial to the network, they did not want the reputation that a producer could push them around, so they dug their heels in.

The other networks were well aware of this and although the show could have been a winner on another network, Joss was like network ebola - you avoid it at all costs. There is another active thread about whether you would want to see a reboot and many people have said only if Joss is involved. My answer was only if Joss is not involved.

 

[Dora]

The answer in a word? Joss.

He had disagreements with various people like Charisma Carpenter, Sarah Michelle Gellar and a few others so he trashed their characters in the show. This is why SMG did not sign up for an eighth season. This is why Cordelia became a saintly character then a villain. There were also people who idolized him such as James Marsters. This is why his part was expanded to the detriment of Season 7. Every choice Joss made was based on how he felt the actors related to him personally and all of these choices were detrimental to the show. Then he tried to strong-arm a renewal of Angel and he found that even though it would have been beneficial to the network, they did not want the reputation that a producer could push them around, so they dug their heels in.

The other networks were well aware of this and although the show could have been a winner on another network, Joss was like network ebola - you avoid it at all costs. There is another active thread about whether you would want to see a reboot and many people have said only if Joss is involved. My answer was only if Joss is not involved.

Well put ,
WE were told that the Studio insisted on James Marsters/Spike by Whedon and they would have possibley cancelled Angel without him ? ,but I remember reading the biography of the studio and that states they wanted a female cast member preferable Alyson/Willow to move over as she had been so successful previously on Angel, but it was Whedon who insisted on Spike.
The studio was concerned about the unbalanced of Males in the cast . Whedon told them to dress Amey Acker in a short skirt and the fans would not notice
As for the cancelling yes they admitted they were wrong to cancel Angel but Whedon pushed them into a corner with his demand...they had no option, if he had left it until program planning it would have been taken up again

 

[EarthLogic]

The answer in a word? Joss.

He had disagreements with various people like Charisma Carpenter, Sarah Michelle Gellar and a few others so he trashed their characters in the show. This is why SMG did not sign up for an eighth season. This is why Cordelia became a saintly character then a villain. There were also people who idolized him such as James Marsters. This is why his part was expanded to the detriment of Season 7. Every choice Joss made was based on how he felt the actors related to him personally and all of these choices were detrimental to the show. Then he tried to strong-arm a renewal of Angel and he found that even though it would have been beneficial to the network, they did not want the reputation that a producer could push them around, so they dug their heels in.

The other networks were well aware of this and although the show could have been a winner on another network, Joss was like network ebola - you avoid it at all costs. There is another active thread about whether you would want to see a reboot and many people have said only if Joss is involved. My answer was only if Joss is not involved.

I don't know that I'd lay all the blame on Joss' reputation - I'm not even sure his rep was that bad with network bosses and I think his disagreements with actors tend to get blown out of proportion by some fans who like to see him as this wholly toxic person.

Cordy became a saintly character way back in S3 - before CC even had a pregnancy - and it seems like that was because the network pushed for Angel to have another love interest and the only way to make Cangel happen was to make her a kind of pale imitation of Buffy. I do think her character was trashed by the Jasmine arc, but I don't think it's out of 'revenge' on Joss' part like some like to claim - as in I don't think he was going 'right, Charisma's really pissed me off, so I'm gonna go punish this character'. He'd already planned a Cordelia-turns-evil storyline (which imo sounds like a bad storyline anyway) and when Charisma announced her pregnancy late this obviously caused bad blood between them. However, there were sooo many ways they could have done it better so I believe the real disservice was that Joss didn't think through the implications of having his main female character possessed forced into a monstrous pregnancy again. That's my beef with him, although the way Cordy was unceremoniously written out without CC being told was a real crappy move.

I wouldn't say he intentionally trashed SMG's character either. I don't believe, like others do, that Buffy was 'ruined' by S6 and 7. Her choices in S6 seemed a very plausible response to her trauma and my problem with S7 isn't necessarily what Buffy does, but the lack of access to her interiority and an explanation of why she does stuff. The darker stories might have played a part in Sarah calling quits, but she also did say that Joss came through on his promise to bring Buffy back in S7 so she at least seemed happy with how it ended. I think their views on who Buffy was often clashed, but I don't think that it was just a case of Joss simply taking his anger out on the character.

And from what David Fury has said about the cancellation, Joss was asking for early renewal to spare the creative team the uncertainty of having to turn down other jobs around pick up time in the hopes that the show would be renewed. Perhaps the bosses did view him as pushy and cancelled based on that perception, but for Joss' part I doubt it was a case of him just wanting to throw his weight around.

 

[SES SA]

Well put ,
WE were told that the Studio insisted on James Marsters/Spike by Whedon and they would have possibley cancelled Angel without him ? ,but I remember reading the biography of the studio and that states they wanted a female cast member preferable Alyson/Willow to move over as she had been so successful previously on Angel, but it was Whedon who insisted on Spike.
The studio was concerned about the unbalanced of Males in the cast . Whedon told them to dress Amey Acker in a short skirt and the fans would not notice
As for the cancelling yes they admitted they were wrong to cancel Angel but Whedon pushed them into a corner with his demand...they had no option, if he had left it until program planning it would have been taken up again

Surprising he chose Spike considering how he feels about Willow and Alyson (and her husband).

 

[RomanticSoul]

Just speaking to the cancellation and nothing else, it's the fault of both the network and Joss. According to Fury I believe. The WB always renewed Angel very late, to the point that it pissed off many people involved with it. Because the actors, producers and writers would not have been able to land new gigs should the show be cancelled at such a late stage. So Joss went to the WB and asked them to give them an early answer (in Februrary that year) on whether or not they would be picked up for S6. The then head of the WB wasn't a fan of AtS and generally considered to be an ass. So when Joss asked, the guy said no to S6. After that TV Season was over, the WB canned that guy and installed a new head. The new one wanted to keep the show. But by then the actors, writers etc. had already landed new jobs (some of them anyway). The WB was even willing to do TV movies instead of a full show so those with new jobs could fit their schedule around whatever new stuff they had lined up. But they had been burned for years by the WB so that didn't happen either.

 

[Dora]

Surprising he chose Spike considering how he feels about Willow and Alyson (and her husband).

I don't' know Alyson had very little in S7 compared with JM , could have been to make sure Spuffy fans followed Spike onto Angel ? I can't remember either JM or AH either working for him after Angel

I don't know that I'd lay all the blame on Joss' reputation - I'm not even sure his rep was that bad with network bosses and I think his disagreements with actors tend to get blown out of proportion by some fans who like to see him as this wholly toxic person.

Cordy became a saintly character way back in S3 - before CC even had a pregnancy - and it seems like that was because the network pushed for Angel to have another love interest and the only way to make Cangel happen was to make her a kind of pale imitation of Buffy. I do think her character was trashed by the Jasmine arc, but I don't think it's out of 'revenge' on Joss' part like some like to claim - as in I don't think he was going 'right, Charisma's really pissed me off, so I'm gonna go punish this character'. He'd already planned a Cordelia-turns-evil storyline (which imo sounds like a bad storyline anyway) and when Charisma announced her pregnancy late this obviously caused bad blood between them. However, there were sooo many ways they could have done it better so I believe the real disservice was that Joss didn't think through the implications of having his main female character possessed forced into a monstrous pregnancy again. That's my beef with him, although the way Cordy was unceremoniously written out without CC being told was a real crappy move.

I wouldn't say he intentionally trashed SMG's character either. I don't believe, like others do, that Buffy was 'ruined' by S6 and 7. Her choices in S6 seemed a very plausible response to her trauma and my problem with S7 isn't necessarily what Buffy does, but the lack of access to her interiority and an explanation of why she does stuff. The darker stories might have played a part in Sarah calling quits, but she also did say that Joss came through on his promise to bring Buffy back in S7 so she at least seemed happy with how it ended. I think their views on who Buffy was often clashed, but I don't think that it was just a case of Joss simply taking his anger out on the character.

And from what David Fury has said about the cancellation, Joss was asking for early renewal to spare the creative team the uncertainty of having to turn down other jobs around pick up time in the hopes that the show would be renewed. Perhaps the bosses did view him as pushy and cancelled based on that perception, but for Joss' part I doubt it was a case of him just wanting to throw his weight around.

I don't know that I'd lay all the blame on Joss' reputation - I'm not even sure his rep was that bad with network bosses and I think his disagreements with actors tend to get blown out of proportion by some fans who like to see him as this wholly toxic person.

Cordy became a saintly character way back in S3 - before CC even had a pregnancy - and it seems like that was because the network pushed for Angel to have another love interest and the only way to make Cangel happen was to make her a kind of pale imitation of Buffy. I do think her character was trashed by the Jasmine arc, but I don't think it's out of 'revenge' on Joss' part like some like to claim - as in I don't think he was going 'right, Charisma's really pissed me off, so I'm gonna go punish this character'. He'd already planned a Cordelia-turns-evil storyline (which imo sounds like a bad storyline anyway) and when Charisma announced her pregnancy late this obviously caused bad blood between them. However, there were sooo many ways they could have done it better so I believe the real disservice was that Joss didn't think through the implications of having his main female character possessed forced into a monstrous pregnancy again. That's my beef with him, although the way Cordy was unceremoniously written out without CC being told was a real crappy move.

I wouldn't say he intentionally trashed SMG's character either. I don't believe, like others do, that Buffy was 'ruined' by S6 and 7. Her choices in S6 seemed a very plausible response to her trauma and my problem with S7 isn't necessarily what Buffy does, but the lack of access to her interiority and an explanation of why she does stuff. The darker stories might have played a part in Sarah calling quits, but she also did say that Joss came through on his promise to bring Buffy back in S7 so she at least seemed happy with how it ended. I think their views on who Buffy was often clashed, but I don't think that it was just a case of Joss simply taking his anger out on the character.

And from what David Fury has said about the cancellation, Joss was asking for early renewal to spare the creative team the uncertainty of having to turn down other jobs around pick up time in the hopes that the show would be renewed. Perhaps the bosses did view him as pushy and cancelled based on that perception, but for Joss' part I doubt it was a case of him just wanting to throw his weight around.

Only thing I know about the CC affair was what she said at a comic con where she said that Joss promised not to sack her if she signed and then did

Whedon's attitude to SMG changed considerable in the later seasons , she talks of not only losing the character in S6 but not being able to discuss things with Whedon because he keeps is yelling at her and also that both Noxon and Whedon had to talk her down from the ledge several times , both smg and CC talks of how little time Whedon spent on set on the later seasons CC says she had not seen him on set since Spin the Bottle

If what Fury say's is right it's a pity Whedon did not do it for Buffy staff...he told nobody about Buffy ending, leaving it to be confirmed from a interview SMG gave
Alyson was furious at her for not telling sooner , but it was Whedons job to tell his employees not Sarah....... he just let SMG take the stick......Buffy is finishing because Sarah leaving ....... making a feeble excuse he thought everybody Knew
Noxon said after S6 they did not expect Sarah to sign for Season eight and SMG confirmed that with Whedon very early in S7
As I put the studio almost certainly would have picked up Angel again, trying to Bully someone into making a decision, even it you believe Fury it was for good intention ( and after Buffy I can't believe it's true ) is not right and got them the unemployed earlier than they would have

 

[EarthLogic]

The then head of the WB wasn't a fan of AtS and generally considered to be an ass.

Ah. See I didn't know he wasn't actually a fan of the show. I always wondered how someone could just panic-cancel a popular and critically acclaimed show, but if he didn't like it in the first place then that makes it more plausible I guess.

 

[Dora]

Just speaking to the cancellation and nothing else, it's the fault of both the network and Joss. According to Fury I believe. The WB always renewed Angel very late, to the point that it pissed off many people involved with it. Because the actors, producers and writers would not have been able to land new gigs should the show be cancelled at such a late stage. So Joss went to the WB and asked them to give them an early answer (in Februrary that year) on whether or not they would be picked up for S6. The then head of the WB wasn't a fan of AtS and generally considered to be an ass. So when Joss asked, the guy said no to S6. After that TV Season was over, the WB canned that guy and installed a new head. The new one wanted to keep the show. But by then the actors, writers etc. had already landed new jobs (some of them anyway). The WB was even willing to do TV movies instead of a full show so those with new jobs could fit their schedule around whatever new stuff they had lined up. But they had been burned for years by the WB so that didn't happen either.

Funny they must have had a different attitude to Buffy as Sarah wanted the programme to stay at WB I understood they would not pay the 2.3 million per episode the whedon wanted and UPN did

 

[Dora]

Ah. See I didn't know he wasn't actually a fan of the show. I always wondered how someone could just panic-cancel a popular and critically acclaimed show, but if he didn't like it in the first place then that makes it more plausible I guess.

Not what is in the history of the Studio it says they could not give Angel preferential treatment and Whedon pressurised them into making as decission...I can't believe cancelling a popular show is the decision of just one man.......

 

[RomanticSoul]

Ah. See I didn't know he wasn't actually a fan of the show. I always wondered how someone could just panic-cancel a popular and critically acclaimed show, but if he didn't like it in the first place then that makes it more plausible I guess.

I think it was because of the shows format. AtS was an arc heavy show. It's not a show where you can just jump into any episode and know what's going on. It's not like BtVS with it's FOTW format. But Joss thought they had earned an early answer (which I kind of agree with) since they caved into a lot of the network's demands made for S5. So basically they caved into what the studio wanted and got canned anyway. But Joss is not a person I would send into negotiations IMO. So yeah it was a lose-lose situations.

Not what is in the history of the Studio it says they could not give Angel preferential treatment and Whedon pressurised them into making as decission...I can't believe cancelling a popular show is the decision of just one man.......

It's what was in the 'press' back then. And IMO it had nothing to do with preferential treatment. AtS was always renewed so late that the actors, writers and producers were left hanging every year. It's a shitty thing to do by the network when you consider pilot Season. If all these people were going to be out of work, it's a must for a network to let them know in time because then they can look for other work. It's much harder to do that when every Pilot is done and renewed shows have already gotten to casting and hiring for the next Season. S5 wasn't going to happen unless Joss caved into the demands of the network to begin with. IMO it wasn't out of line for Joss to say 'we did everything you wanted us to do so can you for once let us know early enough whether we be renewed or not'. But Joss is not without fault because February was way too early to approach the network and as I said, Whedon is not someone you send for negotiations.

 

[DagonSphere]

TheWb was developing a new vampire show as a potential replacement for Angel at the time, Dark Shadows. That might have also played into them turning down Joss for a sixth season. Unfortunately though, the Dark Shadows pilot didn't turn out so great and it was never picked up. It's kind of interesting though that TheWB in general did the same mistake with Angel that they did with Buffy. They let two of their signature shows go over money concerns after their respective 5th seasons.

UPN didn't pick up Angel, because they had lost money on Buffy, since they could not launch a successful show after it and since they also wanted to get away from being known as the network that picks up other networks' shows.

I was surprised Angel wasn't saved. The fan campaigns were fairly big for a cancelled TV show. They had trucks with "Save Angel" on them driving through LA, the aforementioned Blood-Drives, they took out a fairly expensive ad in either Variety or The Hollywood Reporter (I don't remember the exact magazine). They went far above what the fans of Roswell did with the Tabasco bottles that they sent to the Wb.

The Angel TV movies never materialized, since Joss was busy with Serenity and his Wonder Woman script and because David Boreanaz was very adamant about not wanting to return for TV movies. In interviews back then, Boreanaz said that he would only return for a feature film. Honestly, by season five of Angel, Boreanaz was pretty much ready to move on to new things. I think he was probably relieved when it ended, because he didn't have to be responsible for people losing their jobs.

Also, I wouldn't say Sarah's character was trashed, I think that's a subjective opinion. Her character went through some dark developments, but I think she was still always written as a likeable protagonist. Also, Sarah didn't really clash with Joss as much, though she was unhappy with Buffy's dark journey in season six, because it felt so foreign to her and there was a short amount of time in which neither Joss nor Sarah felt appreciated enough by the other for what they had done for each other's careers. But both Sarah and Joss always remained professional throughout the run of the show. The way Joss treated Charisma Carpenter over on Angel is another story, but we don't know the whole story about that, even CC hinted that she may have been difficult and that she had been going through some major stuff at the time (though I still think Joss was an ass for handling the situation the way he did).

Also, Joss didn't spend as much time on set in the latter years of Buffy and Angel, because he had THREE shows on the air at the same time. Firefly was in development during season 6+3, Firefly was on during season 7+4, Serenity was in development during Angel season five. Of course he had less time available to handle all day-to-day-activities. That being said, he still did rewrites on all scripts.

IMO it wasn't out of line for Joss to say 'we did everything you wanted us to do so can you for once let us know early enough whether we be renewed or not'. But Joss is not without fault because February was way too early to approach the network and as I said, Whedon is not someone you send for negotiations.

Additionally, the ratings were up that year. It was kind of a no-brainer to renew the show. But in addition to having a potential Angel replacement in the works, the network felt Angel didn't do well enough in repeats to warrant a renewal, as repeats were still important.

 

[Mr Trick]

But the ratings weren't that great. I've just looked it up on Wiki. The ratings were at their best during season 1 (4.8), they held firm during the next two seasons (4.2), the fourth season was the lowest rated (3.65). The fifth saw a slight rise, but it was still 162 in its time slot. I understand that the fall out with Joss was probably the death nail. But to me any show that get five seasons on modest figures like that has done pretty well.

 

[EarthLogic]

Honestly, by season five of Angel, Boreanaz was pretty much ready to move on to new things. I think he was probably relieved when it ended, because he didn't have to be responsible for people losing their jobs.

I don't think he was. I know in one interview he mentioned that he'd like to explore more of the Angel/Spike dynamic in another season (though I can't remember if that was said before or after cancellation). However Bones did start in 2005 so I guess by the time he was cast in that he probably wasn't looking to go back to Angel stuff. And why would DB be considered responsible for job losses?